Degradation of the rank of Cpl.

[Webbo]

Following on from this thread:

http://www.e-goat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=16877&highlight=degradation

Just curious as to the feeling of how undervalued we are, some background from me, as a 6 year Cpl who is waiting to be released off the promotion board I would have thought that on Op's my experience would count for something, but nooooooooo, 3 weeks into a 14 week tour and where do I find myself........





TOOL STORES for 12 hours a day every day for 21 days!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now as a self supervisor, under sig, over sig and line controller with every Q annotation for a fairy on Tonka why is it that we are doing less and less supervisory work and instead doing mundane duties that I believe any capable SAC (T) or AMM should be doing, or is that the we can't trust them to hand out tools but can trust them to work on ARMED A/C. I know the previous Squadron used Cpl's but why?

Any other Cpl's of any trade feel they have been moved down 1 rank?DT_Xtremez_30:

 

[muttywhitedog]

If you want to feel really undervalued Mate, the tool stores for the Harrier Det out there was manned by an SAC Supplier!!!

 

[Webbo]

If you want to feel really undervalued Mate, the tool stores for the Harrier Det out there was manned by an SAC Supplier!!!

Now I feel better................DT_Xtremez_30:

 

[4everAD]

Always thought it funny that in the Army you might as a Cpl have 2 Lance jacks and 4 privates to lead however in my trade (TG 4) the most I have ever had to supervise /lead was 2 ORs.

Cpl's in the RAF aren't used anywhere near their full potential, I put this down to (sometimes) too hands on management by the SNCO's and officers. Nowadays it's "Come to me with any problems etc, my doors always open..."

However it should be "Go through your Cpl first, if he can't sort it then come to me".

The erosion of the chain of command has made Cpl's nothing more than better paid SAC's.

 

[grumpyoldb]

Now I feel better................DT_Xtremez_30:

Could've been worse. It could have been manned (?) by an SACW supplier............! DT_Xtremez_42:

 

[Forestfan]

"The erosion of the chain of command has made Cpl's nothing more than better paid SAC's. "

That could also read as

"The erosion of the chain of command has made Sgt's nothing more than better paid Cpl's."

Certainly feels like it where I am.

 

[Max]

I definitely felt as if I had more responsibility and respect as a JT Rigger than a Cpl Heavy, Cpl is very definitely a s**t rank to be.

 

[Downsizer]

The problem IMO is twofold:

Firstly acting rank is thrown around like confetti...more of my SACs have been up and down to Cpl than haven't, making the rank seem irrelevant.

Secondly Cpls today, by and large, don't want to be an NCO or leader, they want to be mates with the SACs, and this is made worse by the large number of people who don't get posted on promotion....

 

[Realist78]

The problem IMO is twofold:

Firstly acting rank is thrown around like confetti...more of my SACs have been up and down to Cpl than haven't, making the rank seem irrelevant.

Secondly Cpls today, by and large, don't want to be an NCO or leader, they want to be mates with the SACs, and this is made worse by the large number of people who don't get posted on promotion....

I believe that is the nub of the problem, in toto.DT_Xtremez_09:

 

[MyShineyAr$e]

Secondly Cpls today, by and large, don't want to be an NCO or leader, they want to be mates with the SACs, and this is made worse by the large number of people who don't get posted on promotion....

I agree completely. Unfortunately its isn't restricted to Cpls. The problem has been endemic for a number of years and has been carried up the rank structure which then encourages the next generation of NCOs to have the same values and relationships with their subordinates.

Eventually I feel this means that when the older generation retire, we'll be left with a 'gang' instead of a military organisation.

 

[The Masked Geek]

this is made worse by the large number of people who don't get posted on promotion....

That is irrelavant, I was promoted in situ and have moved out of my Cpl mould and into my Sgt role just fine.

IMO, the problem starts at the top. If our leaders gave us an example to follow, then it would not be an issue.

We have officers in our place who like to act like mates and it does nothing for the aspiring NCOs amongst us. I was lucky in that I had a realy sh1t SNCO or two and have been so frustrated by the lack of management and leadership that on promotion, I made sure I didn't follow their lazy ways, and my guys are thankful for it.

Each and every one of us is part of the problem and until we all man up and take on the roles which we are paid for, it will never go away.

If you have an underperforming NCO then it should be reflected in their SJAR. Time and time again, I have seen guys getting High / Spec recs and they haven't shown an ounce of leadership potential.

Until the guys are shown how to act and then hit where it hurts if they still fail, what impetus do they have to change?

 

[wally375]

"The erosion of the chain of command has made Cpl's nothing more than better paid SAC's. "

That could also read as

"The erosion of the chain of command has made Sgt's nothing more than better paid Cpl's."

Certainly feels like it where I am.

It's good to have the money thoughDT_Xtremez_30:

 

[eric the red]

A lot won't like this but:

If we have a proper pyramid system from top to bottom and only promoted the best then a lot of the problem would be resolved.
However, promotion would then take even longer and how many of you would be willing to wait 15 years to make cpl? While we have the rank system as it is, while we allow everyone the chance of a full career (as long as they reach the required rank at the right times), while Cpl is mostly a producer rank, while people expect to be paid for their experience as well as their knowledge then I don't see much changing.
IMO neither the rank of Cpl or Sgt has been devalued, we/I faced the same problems 30 years ago. It doesn't make it right but until we change the numbers of Cpls and Sgts we have (other ranks too) then it is unlikely to change.

 

[Downsizer]

That is irrelavant, I was promoted in situ and have moved out of my Cpl mould and into my Sgt role just fine.

Good for you. You are clearly an exception to the rule.

 

[Rambling Sid]

A lot won't like this but:

If we have a proper pyramid system from top to bottom and only promoted the best then a lot of the problem would be resolved.
However, promotion would then take even longer and how many of you would be willing to wait 15 years to make cpl? While we have the rank system as it is, while we allow everyone the chance of a full career (as long as they reach the required rank at the right times), while Cpl is mostly a producer rank, while people expect to be paid for their experience as well as their knowledge then I don't see much changing.
IMO neither the rank of Cpl or Sgt has been devalued, we/I faced the same problems 30 years ago. It doesn't make it right but until we change the numbers of Cpls and Sgts we have (other ranks too) then it is unlikely to change.

Looks like we were in about the same time, in my trade group it was very rare for anyone to be promoted to Cpl, unless it was dangled as an incentive to re-up. Time promotion was for the guys who started off with their stripes upside down but for the rest of us it was dead mans shoes. Good performance evals were essential and you had to get the education qualifications as well. So when you were eventually promoted you had actually earned it. Thinking was different in those days as well, even if you didn't respect the person you respected the rank. There were a few Cpl's who threw their weight around, you could normally tell them by the fact they ate and drank on their own.....!!!!!

 

[MyShineyAr$e]

Thinking was different in those days as well, even if you didn't respect the person you respected the rank.

I refer to a post in the thread about TG17 being cnuts, where an SAC was completely disrespectful to a FS.

The attitude of personnel who have joined since the advent of political correctness, human rights and all that pink and fluffy boll0cks has gradually detriorated to the point where they respect very little.

 

[Mini-Monkey]

We went through the whole JT/SAC(T) to CPL and back thing a few times with plenty of people at our place. It was ****e, the WO hated it mainly because no one was getting paid for acting rank. The solution - get rid of all acting ranks! We then got the required supervisory man power. Unfortunatly it was in the form of a darker shade of blue.... Needless to say the way the RN works is alot different to the way RAF do, and the sooner the last of them go, the better!

They want us to be military NCO's when it comes to tool checks/cleaning the hanger etc, but not supervisors on the shop floor.

 

[windy]

TOOL STORES for 12 hours a day every day for 21 days!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FFS...........complete waste of manpower/resources, speak to your FS and get it sorted if it bothers you that much..............

 

[Rambling Sid]

QUOTE=MyShineyAr$e;389162]I refer to a post in the thread about TG17 being cnuts, where an SAC was completely disrespectful to a FS.

The attitude of personnel who have joined since the advent of political correctness, human rights and all that pink and fluffy boll0cks has gradually detriorated to the point where they respect very little.[/QUOTE]

How can you run an armed force where one of the rank and file is allowed to be disrespectful to a pretty senior enlisted rank.

Where is your thinking if you are disrespectful to the guy who will eventually write your performance evaluation, authorize your leave, or allocate your work assignment.

There have been gobby SAC's since the rank was created but what is really wrong is that they are allowed to get away with it. I am afraid a lot of the blame lies with the F.S. who actually took the disrespect and didn't address it. Before you ostracize him, it is also the blame of all the other SNCO's who have allowed this situation to build up to a point where they have no or little authority.

Perhaps it would do all NCO's to remember that they hold a rank and that being a manager is only a small portion of their responsibilities. Hopefully some zob will read this and decide it is time to back up his senior staff.

 

[ninjarabbi]

I picked up a young man last week for disobeying SSO's and his reply to me was 'what the ****'s it got to do with you?'. On passing his details to P1 I was asked 'were there any witnesses?' and when I said no was advised that they wouldn't take it any further. Until we actually start getting some top cocer when we try to discipline the JR's it's a waste of time. I should have just battered the little prick!