Limit on the amount of food an Airman can consume in the mess question

[shettie]

Is it true that on PAYD stations the contractors have had all the Sqn T-bars closed down? (I heard a rumour...)

 

[br9mp81]

Have just returned from kents land of smoke and flame and was to say the least surprised to learn (i've been out 20 years but still work for mod)that both single and married have to pay food on courses,whilst yes this is a sign of the time's etc,and other benefits of service life can be taken into account,i do feel it is very unfair not to provide cooking equipment(there is not and no plans to) in the block,to sell people out to company and then offer no choice stinks in my view.

 

[Soon To Leave]

As usual, what they give with one hand they take back with the other.

The odd occasion I've been to a Pay As You Dine Mess I've been appalled by the lack of choice, poor quality and price. A lot of people have already voted with their feet and this makes the situation even worse for the few left still using it.

As for Sqn Tea Bars being closed, this is very true. Contractors are struggling to get customers through their doors therfore by closing other outlets they believe they can monopolise food supply. DT_Xtremez_25:

 

[Soon To Leave]

i do feel it is very unfair not to provide cooking equipment(there is not and no plans to) in the block,to sell people out to company and then offer no choice stinks in my view.

The reason for not having communal cooking equipment is on the grounds of hygiene and liability.

Why not buy a small combination microwave /oven (as little as £35 from somewhere like ASDA) and cook the odd meal youself in your own room in the block. Don't forget to have it electrically checked as with any other electrical equipment.

 

[shettie]

As for Sqn Tea Bars being closed, this is very true. Contractors are struggling to get customers through their doors therfore by closing other outlets they believe they can monopolise food supply. DT_Xtremez_25:

That is just FCUKING scandalous! Thats the method of raising the Sqn fund, financing social events, and the extra-strong cuppa char and an egg banjo after a night on the p1ss!!!! I think a letter to my MP might be in order!

 

[R_Squared]

That would work in the messes, but under CRL, ALL catering establishments on camp would come under the contractor so financially they wouldn't dip out. Especially as the food in other establishments is generally more expensive than the price of a mess meal and people are generally more willing to eat elsewhere other than the mess.

This is sadly true, but they don't own Tescos.

Personally, I believe, that any intitiative that requires an entire glossy booklet to justify why it's a good idea, is actually a bollox idea.

Unfortunately, we are now tied into this awful pile of sh1te, and the big badges have forced YET ANOTHER turd down our necks.

I believe that the progenator of this steaming pile should be firmly punched in the face for effectively destroying the tattered remains of service life.

This will lead to the closure of the Mess system almost in it's entirety, and the introduction of combined messing. They try and deny that this will happen and that there are protections in place, but it is inevitable.
I am determined to enjoy the excellent Mess at Marham whilst it still survives.

Only my opinion of course. DT_Xtremez_25:

 

[squipper]

The idea of PAYD is a legacy of what we wanted and asked for years ago. We (collectively) wanted a canteen affair so that we could go into the JRM and pay for what we ate at the same prices we were paying through our salaries.

What we got was not what we wanted or indeed what the MoD signed upto in the first place. The current CDS stopped the PAYD roll out into the RAF until the contractors were re-callibrated and brought into line with what they signed up to.

We are now learning off the mistakes made by the Army & RN before re-comencing the roll out across the RAF. Air Sec is fully aware of the grass roots feeling and was Stn Cdr at the first Scottish RAF unit to go PAYD. He is on our side.

Rather that sound off on here, how many people have actually put a written complaint into the Contract Monitors on the units they have eaten at? They are the only ones who can gather evidence and do something about the poor quality we receive. I was at the large Bucks training unit a couple of weeks ago and ate in the Maitland mess, for what I paid I had a fair meal. A bowl of soggies, 5 piece cooked b/fast, coffee and toast for £1.06....bargain. Evening meal was a full 3 courses for less than £3. Try getting that in Wendover or anywhere else for that matter.

 

[R_Squared]

That's not the point in it's entirety though is it.

Rather than your "payment for food you don't eat at the weekend" taking up the slack. All the section T-Bars and Messes will be "taking up the slack" so you can enjoy your cheap meal prices.

So rather than just the livers in who were too short sighted to see that what they were getting under the old system was infact a very good deal even if they only took half their meals, we will now have every section on the Station, and every person who wants to eat or drink anything in their own crewrooms having to pay much higher prices to subsidise the whingers.

As I live out, I already provide my own meals. However, I resent the idea that our T-Bar, organised and run by ourselves for ourselves, will be taken over for the benefit of an outside agency. Plus the fact that we will have to run it for them, as if we were their employees!

We have sold ourselves to an out and out monopoly, many stations are in the @rse end of nowhere, and there is little recourse for anyone who lives in to effectively feed themselves without having to use their "coffee shops".

You can write as many letters complaining about the standard of food as you wish, it's almost irrelevant, it's the fact that the system is being forced upon us at all which is the issue which makes me particularly angry.

I also deeply resent the effect that this will have on our Messes. I deal with one company on behalf of the JR's who couldn't be less helpful if they tried. Everytime I go into a meeting with these people I see the future of the RAF. It's not pleasant.

There was no requirement to bring this in at all. It was a bright idea that someone decided to force through. It should have died a death years ago.

 

[StickyFingers]

At a well known East Anglian Station, those who need "extra" portions due to being a fitness freak and doing extra weight's etc can go to the Med Centre, see the Doc's and get a chit to say that they are "allowed" extra portions to assist in their training!!

And this is good gen !!!!!!DT_Xtremez_35:

Really? The whole thing that made me start this thread was that it was one of the muscle lads upset that he wasn't getting his massive meals to help his bicep girth. So he can get a chit off the doc eh?

 

[Cooheed]

That's all well and good, but you can't live off Micro chips and pot noodles indefinitely.

Loads you can do with a microwave. Though wouldn't have thought microwaving a pot noodle would be very bright...DT_Xtremez_41:

 

[Stevienics]

Hmm. they may nail you for the micro options as on a government facility it needes to be tested every 6 months for leakages - but that aside......

..........someone DID mention that it was in QR's of DCI's that breakfast was obligatory. In fact, it used to say that breakfast is in fact a parade - you have to go. I am not sure if this is still so, but if it is, it throws up some very interesting things in PAYD.

1. For all meals, I do hope that the contractors are issuing a VAT receipt for every meal and to every person that eats there. Good one to check that because......

2. Surely, if breakfast is a parade and therefore an obligation under your terms of business, you are entiitled to tax relief on the breakfast meal?

I feel certain that handbrake house will have a view on this?

 

[grumpyoldb]

.

..........someone DID mention that it was in QR's of DCI's that breakfast was obligatory.

There used to be a thing about you could be charged for failing to have breakfast before coming into work, but, I think that was only if you were unfit for duty when you got in. I don't recall anyone dropping dead through not eating before work. I think it may have been a case of having a big greasy fry-up to soak up the alcohol from the previous evening before arriving for duty. It certainly was in my case. DT_Xtremez_14:

 

[Joe_90]

So rather than just the livers in who were too short sighted to see that what they were getting under the old system was infact a very good deal even if they only took half their meals, we will now have every section on the Station, and every person who wants to eat or drink anything in their own crewrooms having to pay much higher prices to subsidise the whingers.

I'm using your quote Rojaws but others have said similar. You are giving the impression that it is the livers in now that wanted PAYD when in actual fact when I joined nearly 15 years ago there were already plans afoot for the system. The guys living in now are stuck with a system that was put in process before a lot of them were out of primary school, the people that wanted it are those that are either now married and in quarters, or have bought there own house or have even left the RAF. That's us and our predecessors not LAC Smith and SAC Bloggs in the Mess now and it's something to remember, if you ever complained about paying for meals you didn't eat you are as responsible as anyone else who didn't make the actual descision but helped push the feelings through that it was a good idea, and that goes for everyone who was in the RAF in the last 15 to 20 years in my opinion.

 

[Warwick Hunt]

Viewing this from a more pastoral and duty-of-care angle as a NCO, one of the worst things of Save-As-You-Starve is you tell a junior airman he can have an extra £100 in his sky rocket to go on the lash with if he doesn't go to the mess to eat. I can see the day when one of my SAC's is gibbering in the corner of the room because he hasn't eaten a proper meal in several days as the lads are off out on an all dayer the following weekend, and I have to go and buy him a bacon butty or something to make sure he eats.

I'm not saying the junior cadre haven't got the common dog to feed themselves, but as I said, when the push comes to the shove and cash is tight, eating takes a pretty poor second in a lot of eyes.

As has been previously alluded to, not eating breakfast is a disciplinary matter if the culprit is unfit for work. How will this be enforced under PAYD?

A massive sh1t sandwich is coming our way of which we all have to take a huge bite...at a greatly enhanced price undere PAYD probably!

 

[spanners]

Before this gets out of hand about young lads not having enough money to feed themselves, has there ever been an example of anyone being turned away from a PAYD mess because they didn’t have any money?

 

[R_Squared]

I believe that in the event of anyone being unable to pay, they would be limited to core menu and would be charged for meals taken out of their next pay packet.

Effectively returning to the system we have now, but with lower quality food. Also carrying the extra benefit of making feeding yourself a disciplinary matter. DT_Xtremez_42:

I don't think it will be a really big problem TBH, I'm sure the vast majority of JRs are responsible enough to look after their own money.

They'll just be paying full price for most things if they stray outside the core menu instead of the subsidised meals they were getting before.

 

[squipper]

If you inadvertantly run out of money for what ever reason all you have to do is report to the catering office (or somewhere similar), complete a form and you will be given a meal to the core menu price. The money will then be recovered from your next wage packed, therefore no-one will ever be in a position to say they cannot afford to eat.......duty of care sorted!!!

You may also find that PAYD was introduced to prevent a legal challenge against the Armed Forces on the grounds of being forced to pay for a service that is in effect optional (ie if you eat 3 square a day or not).

 

[R_Squared]

I'm using your quote Rojaws but others have said similar. You are giving the impression that it is the livers in now that wanted PAYD when in actual fact when I joined nearly 15 years ago there were already plans afoot for the system.......

That's true, but if you noticed that I said "were", past tense. Indicating that I believe it was the whingers of the last 30 years who have now foisted this system onto the current crop.

I joined up in my mid twenties and had a taste of the real world before I got in including having supported myself since I was 17 years old.

When I joined I could not believe how easy life was for everyone, one food payment, all electric paid for, cheap accomodation and no bills to worry about apart from what you bought yourself. What a doddle.
I could not grasp the rational behind those who complained incessantly about food charges and the like. My answer was always, go and live out, see how much you "save" then.

Quite simply, they should have just offered an "Opt out" option. However, if you were to "opt out" you would pay full price for food taken in the mess and only receive the subsidy if you paid up front to make up for the fact that the chefs would be less able to cater for you.

That would have been a sh1te sight simpler, and makes more sense than what we have now. But all management could see was a glorious new dawn full of Starbucks, Costa Coffee and Contractorisation.
We all know how well that works.

 

[Sniffer]

Off Topic But where did you get this little gem of horseturd from?

Hmm. they may nail you for the micro options as on a government facility it needes to be tested every 6 months for leakages - but that aside......

Anyway.....

I despise PAYD having spend a number of years at an Aldershot and then a Bedfordshire establishment, both of which had fully embraced the PAYD package. We were however very lucky to have a super block which had kitchens large enough to get one of those worktop oven/hob/grill thingymabobs. I was reliably informed by the contact monitoring team that the PAYD facility was hemorrhaging cash!

As for the issue of Juniors not feeding themselves in order to have the cash to go on the lash, then that is their hard luck. If they cannot do their job due to lack of nutrition then they should be quite rightly charged. I therefore dont believe that should be used as an argument against PAYD. A better angle would be to argue that we struggle to be "Fit to Fight" given the tripe the PAYD mess puts out, particularly during a weeking when you have what I would refer to as a childrens menu of chips, chicken nuggets, fish fingers, sausages, ravioli, beans or peas.

 

[R_Squared]

....You may also find that PAYD was introduced to prevent a legal challenge against the Armed Forces on the grounds of being forced to pay for a service that is in effect optional (ie if you eat 3 square a day or not).

They should have gone to court.

That argument is weak and would have been thrown out. You have always been given the option to move out of forces accommodation and provide for yourself.
If that option didn't exist, then maybe it would have some merit, but it does.

Remember that at the moment if you live in you don't pay for your utilities. Under PAYD when the electricity bill rockets because everyone is microwaving their meals and boiling kettles for their nutritious Noodle snacks how long do you think it will be before the MoD reviews current accommodation charges, or perhaps, tries to recoup some of the cost by adding a "utility surcharge" to your wages?
Most who live in a block already have a profusion of electrical appliances like fridges etc, but these have been to supplement the existing food provision. Taking on a full domestic role would require a much heavier use of the utility supply.

Obviously a bit of conjecture there but it does seem like a logical step. I wonder if there has been an increase in domestic electrical usage at units that currently have this system.