1 in 10 prisoners are veterans.

The Guardian is not a paper of choice for me, however I have seen a well written article. It talks about how ex-service personnel that have serious physiological problems have been left without help and as a result ended up in prison.

>>LINKY<<

As we all know, the MOD treat service personnel with contempt let alone ex service when it comes to health care and welfare. It f**ks me off because the people who have the power to do anything about this have no idea what the service personnel go through on the battlefield and the transition into civvy Straße, and don't seem to care.

 

[Kryten]

Back in late 2007 in London, I was walking across Waterloo Bridge to get to the station after some social event. It was about 10:30 at night, and it was November, so it was bitterly cold.

At the top of the stairs at the Embankment end of the bridge was a guy, sat huddled in a mangy old duvet, trying desperately to keep warm. He had a piece of cardboard tucked under his chin which said "Ex Serviceman - please spare some change".

I stopped and asked him where he used to serve - turns out he was ex Army, about 30 years old. He didn't say how long he had served, or why he had left, but he said he had been in theatre and had served in Iraq. Whatever had happened to him had left him homeless, and without any support from family or former employees. Now, i kid you not, some feckin t**sers who were also crossing the bridge at the same time actually made snotty comments for talking to what theys said was "a dirty tramp".

Seeing him like that, and hearing some of those comments, made me feel ashamed at myself, ashamed to be British, and ashamed that anyone who has served their country could be left to sit on a bridge on the Thames freezing his nads off begging for money. So i gave him the cash contents of my wallet - about £20. i know there's a chance he probably went and blew it on drugs, or booze - but there is also a good chance that he went and got himself a decent hot meal.

...it boils down to how our troops are supported, both during their time in and when they leave. Which is why I will not be voting for any of the current batch of politicians. Ever.

 

[Tin basher]

As we all know, the MOD treat service personnel with contempt let alone ex service when it comes to health care and welfare.

Your spot on Pie. For those still serving that think the MOD doesn't give a flying fig about you, just wait to discover just how little they really care when you enter civvy street. The figures from this are shocking more ex-service in prison, homeless etc than serving in Afghanistan today. This government seems to abandon people as soon as their perceived usefullness has ended.

 

[Reiver]

I saw a piece about this on the breakfast news. It is absolutely shocking that there is a distinct lack of care provided by the Government, but is there a case to say that mabye the families and friends of these unfortunate veterans should be doing more to help them? Mabye by getting them to see a G.P. for referal to appropriate help?

 

[Jim_P_Pulfrew]

While 10% are ex mil, this pathetic excuse for a government will concentrate on the 20% who are ex dole scroungers who have never done a days work, let alone served the country which feeds and gives them enough money to buy drugs and guns with.

I am all for the people in genuine need getting help, it is what I am happy to pay my taxes for; but the money saved by cutting benefit to the total wastrels could, and most definitely should, be spent on the poor sods who gave all they had for this nation and are getting nothing in return. Except of course, some Judge sending them to chokey because an ex-Tom is having a bit of a tough time readjusting from situations his worship only ever sees sanitised in the media.

Jimps

 

[Kryten]

While 10% are ex mil, this pathetic excuse for a government will concentrate on the 20% who are ex dole scroungers who have never done a days work, let alone served the country which feeds and gives them enough money to buy drugs and guns with.

I am all for the people in genuine need getting help, it is what I am happy to pay my taxes for; but the money saved by cutting benefit to the total wastrels could, and most definitely should, be spent on the poor sods who gave all they had for this nation and are getting nothing in return. Except of course, some Judge sending them to chokey because an ex-Tom is having a bit of a tough time readjusting from situations his worship only ever sees sanitised in the media.

Jimps

Amen to that.

 

[Jim_P_Pulfrew]

Yes it has been quoted before but it is worth another airing on this occasion:

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, 'We serve no red-coats 'ere.'
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed and giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again, an' to myself sez I:
Oh, it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' 'Tommy, go away':
But it's 'Thank you, Mister Atkins,' when the band begins to play -
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
Oh, it's 'Thank you, Mister Atkins,' when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' 'Tommy, wait outside';
But it's 'Special train for Atkins' when the trooper's on the tide -
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
Oh, it's 'Special train for Atkins' when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' 'Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?'
But it's 'Thin red line of 'eroes' when the drums begin to roll -
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
Oh, it's 'Thin red line of 'eroes when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that , an' 'Tommy, fall be'ind,'
But it's 'Please to walk in front, sir,' when there's trouble in the wind -
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
Oh, it's 'Please to walk in front, sir,' when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' 'Chuck him out, the brute!'
But it's 'Saviour of 'is country' when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees

Rudyard Kipling

 

[firestorm]

There's nothing new here. There has always been a sizable minority of ex forces who, when taken out of their ordered world, can't cope with life outside the wire and end up down and out, homeless and dependent on drink or drugs or inside.
The issue is what can be done about it?

 

[Gundulph]

Kryten,

That was a very commendable thing you did, in general I think any serviceman/woman or former service personnel would offer help if they passed someone down on their luck and found out they are former Veterans, it would be nice to see a thread here and in other forums of stories of members who have helped the homeless, what better feeling it is than to take someone for a meal even it is just a Mc D's Breakfast sat outside, it is a massive help!

J_P_Pulfrew, good to see Kipling being Quoted and very apt too! I actually Quoted Kipling in the first pages of "Pull Up a Sandbag" pasted below:

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
Rudyard Kipling, 1890

Yes, it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ spend less on defence,
But who walks the streets of Basra when the air is getting tense?
When the air is getting tense, boys, from Kabul to Kosovo
Who’ll say goodbye to wife and kids, and shoulder pack and go?
Peter Pindar, Sunday Telegraph December 2003

Hasn’t changed much, has it?

 

[PingDit]

This was the subject of major debate on the Jeremy Vine show around lunchtime yesterday, on Radio 2. One of the first guys on the show was arguing the case for the guys who'd left the forces and was exceptionally good at it. I believe he was representing an organisation which is looking into exactly these problems.
Another guy on the show was stating that the forces had one of the best resettlement programs in the world.

Personally, I believe a lot IS done for people leaving. What we need to put into place now as part of the resettlement package is some sort of phsychiatric testing as well. Any help required could then be offered as part of the package.

 

[vim_fuego]

I recently had oversight of an effort to get two servicemen off the streets and during this experience came into contact with various agencies (Veterans Aid, Nomad Trust to name but two) that deal with in the former specifically homeless service people latterly any homeless folk and I tell you what it is not as cut and dry as some of you pertain during rants about the government...

I'm no fan of any politician and I certainly wouldn't waste my p1ss on Mr Brown if I came upon him and he was on fire but there has to be a limit where we as a nation stop looking to 'them' for help in every situation and start looking closer to home...Some of these homeless servicemen will have family...The majority of these families have no idea of the whereabouts of their siblings and spouses...some don't care and its this segment of society that need a kick up the ar$e initially...The attitude of 'we don't want him home the bloody government can sort him out' is wrong...Penny to a pinch of sh1t it was below par parenting skills that produced an individual too unprepared to survive outside of an environment where they are told how many times to chew each mouthful...

The way we have backed off from discipline in the armed forces, the fact that the pay has gone up at a reasonable pace for junior ranks and the rise in single accomodation mit en-suite is the blue touch paper to problems further down the line IMO...I don't like doing this but wind the clock back twenty or so years...whilst you were a junior rank you lived probably in a minimum 4 man room where unless you were unlucky you got a reasonable mix of good and bad, young and old and it all balanced out...as the newbie yes you got monged but the older guys sorted you out, made sure you were suitably ridiculed enough for you not to feck up in a similar fashion again, made sure if you were short you were sorted with a few quid, made sure you knew pretty much what was wrong from right and how to be socially competant...If you fecked up enough times then you were charged and given real punishments that restricted you and taught you the error of your way...in other words you walked into the room as an LAC knowing nothing about anything and hopefully when you moved out you were rounded enough to survive on your own...

Back to the present day...As an LAC if you're even a wee bit savvy you'll know that getting charged is something that is difficult to achieve as long as you've the number of a decent'ish solicitor to threaten us with, you earn quite a bit more in comparison and can by that virtue afford to hit the good life incl. cars, mobiles, hols in Ibiza, soft drugs, large overdrafts, HP and the latest rags...You are IMO running before you can walk and know the cost of everything but the value of nothing...

When this era of servicemen hits civvy street after falling out of favour with the armed forces they can't slow down the pace of their lifestyle...suddenly there is no sizeable paycheck to get you through the booze-ups, you've borrowed every family member and friend to extinction, You get chucked out of your home or digs or a combination of the above and find that drugs/theft/alcohol in combination dull the pain of dossing down behind a derelict factory or bridge...You become near impossible to re-home because of your habits...You even get thrown out of the local hostel for fighting as you were defending your meagre belongings from another 'guest' trying to rob you of your possessions...

You scream to all that listen that the government has let you down...

Some of the above is fact taken from the past few weeks...some is conjecture...Fact is we all have the ability to live our lives one way or another...Through the constant effort of certain parties to secure 'improved' living conditions and pay for junior ranks I think we have to some extent caused another problem...Through the erosion of rank as a tool to control, berate and boll*ck we have lost the ability to properly kick certain people firmly up the ar$e when they need it most...now we get to say 'call me Vim...do you want to see a counsellor?'...

As a matter of interest the parties who came to us for help are still guests of the streets having decided to ignore all advice and generally bite us on the hand at every opportunity we gave them...I'm currently pondering the report that will close their case down and condem them to a winter on the streets...difficult to temper my mood of disappointment in them and frustration at their attitude before I type anything but I tell you what...its been an eye-opener and its not all black and white/government initiated.

 

[Gundulph]

That's a very good idea, no doubt they'd come up with the too expensive angle to crawl out of it though!

Holidays 4 Heroes Organisation over in the ARRSE Site as well as helping the Families of the wounded and fallen are also helping a lot of individual cases of former servicemen and women who have found themselves down on their luck and unable to turn to anyone for help, hopefully they can grow into a Charity in the next year or so and help out on a much larger scale similar to what Help 4 Heroes do for the wounded...

 

[vim_fuego]

That's a very good idea, no doubt they'd come up with the too expensive angle to crawl out of it though!

Holidays 4 Heroes Organisation over in the ARRSE Site as well as helping the Families of the wounded and fallen are also helping a lot of individual cases of former servicemen and women who have found themselves down on their luck and unable to turn to anyone for help, hopefully they can grow into a Charity in the next year or so and help out on a much larger scale similar to what Help 4 Heroes do for the wounded...

I think a great idea would be to approach a charity such as H4H's, TRBL, RAFBF et al and persuade them to design then build units around the homeless hubs of the country that can offer accom, counselling for booze and drugs and training to support themselves. These units would have specialist preferably ex-serving staff that run it on the basis of a barrack block so it re-introduces a regime some of these guys miss and need...Work units should be attached where the guys can be employed post trainig where they can produce things to be sold to pay them a wage, pay their living-in fee's and perhaps even turn a profit...They must have a say in the direction of 'business' and be given responsibilty, when they are ready for it, back to shape their own futures from the basics such as when to bathe right up to making decisions about conduct in the accom, personal security and punishments for other guest misdemeanors etc.

Getting the guys back into an environment that they understand and can cope with, allowing them to get some dignity, confidence and way ahead when all seemingly was lost will work...Also mentoring them as they learn to communicate with what family they may have is vital to getting them back into mainstream society...Once they've scrubbed up, dressed in clean clothes and done a few days honest work for a reasonable bit of pay its amazing how much else they may want to achieve and the memory of shivering with cold and fear on the streets, doubly worse at times like Christmas, should stay with them and act as an incentive...

I stand by my comment earlier that things can bite you on the hand with some people...No system is a cure-all.

 

[wgaf]

I think a great idea would be to approach a charity such as H4H's, TRBL, RAFBF et al and persuade them to design then build units around the homeless hubs of the country that can offer accom, counselling for booze and drugs and training to support themselves. These units would have specialist preferably ex-serving staff that run it on the basis of a barrack block so it re-introduces a regime some of these guys miss and need...Work units should be attached where the guys can be employed post trainig where they can produce things to be sold to pay them a wage, pay their living-in fee's and perhaps even turn a profit...They must have a say in the direction of 'business' and be given responsibilty, when they are ready for it, back to shape their own futures from the basics such as when to bathe right up to making decisions about conduct in the accom, personal security and punishments for other guest misdemeanors etc.

Getting the guys back into an environment that they understand and can cope with, allowing them to get some dignity, confidence and way ahead when all seemingly was lost will work...Also mentoring them as they learn to communicate with what family they may have is vital to getting them back into mainstream society...Once they've scrubbed up, dressed in clean clothes and done a few days honest work for a reasonable bit of pay its amazing how much else they may want to achieve and the memory of shivering with cold and fear on the streets, doubly worse at times like Christmas, should stay with them and act as an incentive...

I stand by my comment earlier that things can bite you on the hand with some people...No system is a cure-all.

Wasn't that the original concept of the Chelsea Pensioners?

 

[Gundulph]

A modern versin of the Chelsea Pensioners could work, but for any rank, maybe a Company could take on such a role. They could have a large camp of wooden log cabin type homes that everyone helps each other to build, supervised by Company Managers who have been promoted themselves through the Company. Then have a workshop training in ideal post service work like Security as well as like was mentioned above, making and designing products that will sell for a profit... build the camp in a decent place, in an environment such as the Country where crops could be planted and harvested also, there are so many things that can be produced if given the cash input to start with, egg farming, agricultural crops and vegetables grown, recycled manure plant to make good soil, worming farm etc.

The above may sound stupid but it would certainly help many people get their lives back together and be surrounded by similar people and in a similar environment to their Military days, maybe even NAAFI could branch out and cater also for these camps, have a social club as well as shop etc.

 

[Gundulph]

In fact if I had the Funding I would start this up myself! there are several decent Log Home Companies out there who provide an almost prefabricated selection of homes. Every company involved could be Veteran owned companies who volunteer to help. Such a camp could also cater for Team Events/Company character building exercises and be run by the formerhomeless, assault courses and command task challenges could be constructed and log cabins built to house Corporations' employees on their character building weekends/weeks...

 

[GD on Wheels]

As far as I know this has been going on for a long time, way before the current Afgan war. It used to be guys who had spent a good proportion of their lives in the forces, are not married and lived in barracks so have no home out side to go to.I think council houses were few and far between for the use of.
Time ex arrived and out the door they went. So to take the theme of hostels why not have some where they can stay on leaving so that they can find work, have a roof over them until accommodation can be found and away you go. As for the poor chaps with say PTSD it should be up to the Govt' as if! to provide all the help needed BEFORE discharge, so they do not end up on the never ending spiral of street, prison, street.

 

[hazmat]

On leaving

On leaving

I was a forces brat and then served till I was 30. (1980'S)
I found that civi street was and still is to me a bloody nightmare.
I've met dozens of 'ex' guys over the years and apart from one or two they all found it the same as me. . . . CHAOS!

On my travels I worked in London and found quite a few 'ex' on the street. Most of them were single. Most arrived on the streets as a result of no support (councils, RAFA, DSS, etc). Most had 'problems' and yet they all wanted to start living decently if only they could get some sort of housing.

I know that the american system isn't too hot but some sort of V.A. is needed in the UK NOW to help those who need medical help as well as those who just can't cope with the civi world.

 

[Gundulph]

I was a forces brat and then served till I was 30. (1980'S)
I found that civi street was and still is to me a bloody nightmare.
I've met dozens of 'ex' guys over the years and apart from one or two they all found it the same as me. . . . CHAOS!

On my travels I worked in London and found quite a few 'ex' on the street. Most of them were single. Most arrived on the streets as a result of no support (councils, RAFA, DSS, etc). Most had 'problems' and yet they all wanted to start living decently if only they could get some sort of housing.

I know that the american system isn't too hot but some sort of V.A. is needed in the UK NOW to help those who need medical help as well as those who just can't cope with the civi world.

It doesn't look like the Government cares or will ever care... hopefully the small Organisations such as Holidays 4 heroes & V.I.A will be helped possibly by the larger Charities such as Help 4 Heroes...

More about V.I.A.

Veterans International Aid

Registered Charity No: 1128026

Veterans International Aid (VIA) is a registered charity and has been formed by two ex Royal Engineers, to help those who have suffered the effects of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, (PTSD) or those who find it difficult to adjust to civilian life after leaving the services.

Through our own experiences of leaving the services and we know how difficult it is walking through the camp gate for the last time and entering what, for many, is the unknown world of civilian life.

For many, this is when the effects of PTSD begin as sufferers have lost the sense of being part of something and civilian life can become very difficult because of the experiences that our service personnel have been through during their service life.

During our research we looked at what had happened to veterans from the Falklands War era. The results from such a short conflict were shocking.

Statistics from the Falklands War

30,000 British service personnel took part in the Falklands War with a loss of 255 British lives and over 700 wounded. Since then, over 300 have committed suicide. Many have ended up in prison or living on the streets.

These shocking statistics are the result of the trauma and experiences of the service personnel who took part in that conflict. Many have suffered with PTSD which has gone untreated for many years. Many others have apparently self medicated, because some civilian doctors have not understood the pressures of what they have experienced.

Iraq and Afghanistan

VIA believe that the same thing is happening to many of today’s troops who have served, or are serving, in Iraq and Afghanistan and also previous conflicts since the end of the Falklands War.

To date, approximately 150,000 service personnel have served in Iraq and Afghanistan and there have been over 400 killed and many seriously wounded. VIA understand that 25 have committed suicide and many more are suffering with psychological problems due to the experiences they have had.

As well as the killed and wounded, this has a marked effect on other service personnel and is all to do with the stresses of being in combat. Service personnel are leaving this environment and then the majority move into civilian life.

A recent BBC report stated that as many as 8500 ex-servicemen have been through or were in the prison system and 12,000 have no fixed address. One in every 11 prisoners serving currently in British prisons is an ex-member of H.M. Forces and 70% of those have been diagnosed with PTSD.

Our Forces train extremely hard to gain a wide array of practical skills during their service and these skills are not always recognised by civilian employers and because of this, many of these skills are never used again. These skills are badly needed in many parts of the world.

VIA will help with rehabilitation after treatment has been finished to eradicate the symptoms of PTSD.

VIA will organise adventurous expeditions and fund raising events which those who have been through treatment for PTSD can take an active part in using the unique camaraderie and skills that all service personnel possess through their time in the services.

These expeditions are designed to help rebuild confidence and self esteem.

VIA believes that by getting involved with our organisation after receiving treatment for PTSD and taking an active part in our expeditions and fund raising events or in any support capacity, they will feel they can still belong to something worthwhile. They will be able to use the skills they learned in the services, in an environment they understand.

By getting the right team together, VIA will get our message out in the public domain and get the support and the funding needed to help those who have suffered with PTSD.

VIA is not just about one expedition or fund raising event, this will be an ongoing commitment and we will be looking at further expeditions and fund raising events in which we can involve our ex-service personnel who have suffered with PTSD.

By helping others we come in contact with on our travels, essentially we will be ‘Helping ourselves by helping others.’

 

[MakkaPakka1]

hi i know my wife has put a thread on here about a QR with a discharge under welfare.YES i know shes not homeless but it shows the lack of help you get when coming out of service