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Avro Lancaster vs Avro Shackleton

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Rich_P

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I've just had a look on the basic specifications between the Avro Lancaster and Avro Shackleton.

The Lancaster more or less can do what the Shackleton can and a bit more in the basics.

I can see why the Shackleton needed more powerful engines, and the high energy efficiency of the contra-rotating propellers to give the similar performance to the Lancaster as the Shackleton weighs a good seven tonnes more than the Lancaster.

So what were the main advantages of the Shackleton over the Lancaster? If the Lancaster was so good, why did they replace it so soon and not just upgrade the Lancaster and fit the Griffons into the Lancaster rather than coming up with a completely new aircraft (Lincoln)? Only to then soon afterwards come out with the Shackleton (granted, the Lincoln and Shackleton are still similar to the Lancaster in many ways it seems)? :PDT_Xtremez_41:
 
Rich_P said:
I've just had a look on the basic specifications between the Avro Lancaster and Avro Shackleton.

The Lancaster more or less can do what the Shackleton can and a bit more in the basics.

I can see why the Shackleton needed more powerful engines, and the high energy efficiency of the contra-rotating propellers to give the similar performance to the Lancaster as the Shackleton weighs a good seven tonnes more than the Lancaster.

So what were the main advantages of the Shackleton over the Lancaster? If the Lancaster was so good, why did they replace it so soon and not just upgrade the Lancaster and fit the Griffons into the Lancaster rather than coming up with a completely new aircraft (Lincoln)? Only to then soon afterwards come out with the Shackleton (granted, the Lincoln and Shackleton are still similar to the Lancaster in many ways it seems)? :PDT_Xtremez_41:
Click to expand...

IMHO the Griffon engine wasn't that good. Speaking to ex-Shack techies, as well as working on the mighty beast myself, the engines gave constant trouble in service. We are continually repairing/replacing radiators and plugs need changing every 5 minutes it seems.

IMHO I think the Shackleton probably is larger than the Lanc (someone confirm)

The Mark 2 was the definitive version and has a full galley and crew sleeping area (well if you can call it that)..

Like I say I think it was a question of size, I'm sure MAINJAFAD will be along presently to put us all right!
 
MontyPlumbs said:
IMHO the Griffon engine wasn't that good. Speaking to ex-Shack techies, as well as working on the mighty beast myself, the engines gave constant trouble in service. We are continually repairing/replacing radiators and plugs need changing every 5 minutes it seems.

IMHO I think the Shackleton probably is larger than the Lanc (someone confirm)

The Mark 2 was the definitive version and has a full galley and crew sleeping area (well if you can call it that)..

Like I say I think it was a question of size, I'm sure MAINJAFAD will be along presently to put us all right!
Click to expand...

The early Shacks (Mk1/Mk2) were designs based on the wings of the Lincoln (which were larger than those of the Lanc) with a new fuselage which was a lot wider than that of the Lanc or the Lincoln, designed from the start for the maritime recce role (though the main spar was still a bitch to climb over to get to the front of the aircraft from the main entrance hatch).

Definitive version of the Shack was the MR Mk3, with a modern tricycle undercarriage (with nose wheel), 6 engines (four Griffins, and two RR viper jets in the outer engine nacelles) and a redesigned wing with tip fuel tanks. The two jets to give a bit more poke in take off and transit speeds if required.

Some of Mk 2 that were replaced by the Nimrod MR1, then became the AEW Mk 2 with the fitting of old US designed radars taken from the Royal Navy's Gannet AEW3 (which before that had been fitted to Royal Navy AEW Avengers in the 1950's) and dated from the mid 1940's. Thanks to the tail wheel, they could get the Radome on to the bottom of the fuselage. I don't think it could have been done on the MR3, plus I think the MR3 had problems with the wing structure thanks to the extra weight and thrust on the outer wings due to the two jets fitted to it (again somebody who worked on them would have to confirm this).
 
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And lets not forget that the Shackleton had the all time classic pi55 up song.

All together now......
Ohoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo....
Shackleton's don't bother me.
Shackleton's don't bother me.

................ :PDT_Xtremez_28:
 
The Avro family had many variations on the same basic plan not just Shacks Lancs and Lincolns. SMLLYT Shackleton, Manchester (short lived two engined version), Lancaster, Lincoln, York and Tudor. Some where used as freighters (Berlin Airlift) others as post war passenger aircraft but all looked remarkably similar.

I await corrections from those with greater knowledge than I.
 
Tin basher said:
The Avro family had many variations on the same basic plan not just Shacks Lancs and Lincolns. SMLLYT Shackleton, Manchester (short lived two engined version), Lancaster, Lincoln, York and Tudor. Some where used as freighters (Berlin Airlift) others as post war passenger aircraft but all looked remarkably similar.

I await corrections from those with greater knowledge than I.
Click to expand...

Manchester was the original design, powered by 2 RR Vulture 24 cylinder X configuration engines, the first 100 were overweight due massive strengthening built into the airframe so that catapult launching could be used to get them out of short length airfields, which was later dropped. Airframe was OK, thought short wing span and unreliable engines made the aircraft a death-trap that was only operated by the RAF for about a year or so (It couldn’t fly on one engine for very long, and due to cooling and lubrication problems, engine failure was common) about 200 odd were built.

Lancaster was a Manchester with a longer wing span and 4 engines (Mk 1 used RR Merlins, Mk 2 used Bristol Hercules radials, Mk 3 was same as the Mk 1, but used US produced Packard Merlin’s that required different tools and spares. The Mk 10 were Lancaster’s built in Canada).

Lancastrian was a civil airliner / transport based on the Lancaster with a new nose and back end replacing the turrets, used as a post war airliner.

York was a transport based on the wings and tail of the Lancaster with a new box cross section fuselage.

Lincoln was originally the Lancaster Mk 4, with a longer wing, more powerful Merlins and a redesigned fuselage, designed for operations in the far east.

Shackleton was based on the Lincoln’s wing and tail, with a new fuselage and RR Griffin engines.

Tudor was a pressurised airliner with a new fuselage and tail on the wings of the Lincoln, it was not a successful design. It also has the claim to infamy in that one crashed, killing all onboard including Roy Chadwick, the Avro Chief Designer who had been in charge of designing all of the above aircraft.
 
From a book about the Shack:
An anecdote that circulated for several years tells of a Shackleton MR3 Phase III that made a series of low-level passes over a US Navy aircraft carrier in the North Atlantic. Each pass was made with an increasing number of Griffon engines shut down, followed by a rapid climb on full power in order to gain momentum.
So, the first run was made with all four engines running; the second with one engine shut down, the third with two shut down; the fourth with three shut down. The fifth and final approach was made with all Griffons shut down and just the Viper jets on full throttle.
Picture the scene, as the Shack approached the carrier’s stern with no propellers turning, the undercarriage was lowered. The flight deck crew frantically started pushing their aircraft to the edge of the deck, ready to ditch them to make room for the monster.
Ha! I wonder what their expressions were as the Shack roared by then restarted it’s engines, retracted the undercarriage and climbed for home.

:D
 
And another:

A Shackleton MR2 was about to go on patrol over the Eastern Pacific when the Navigator noted that the aircraft carrier, HMS Warrior, departing from Peru, would only be about 25 miles from the Shacks’ patrol area. The captain decided that should the carrier prove to be in the area, they would drop a large Christmas present.
So, off they went and near the end of the patrol, a check on the radar showed a response on HMS Warrior’s predicted track. The Captain told the crew there was enough fuel to do a few passes over the carrier before they had to turn back to base. He called Warrior on the radio then proceeded to perform a series of flypasts to the delight of the matelots gathered on the flight deck. Before the last pass, the Captain called Warrior to stand by to receive a large parcel, scores of sailors appeared on the deck and stood ready to receive the load.
The Shack ran in towards the stern with bomb doors open, the Navigator pressed the switch and the crew were rewarded at the sight of this very large crate hitting the flight deck dead centre, smashing into little pieces and it’s contents spilling all over the deck – hundreds of land crabs they had gathered before the flight. Any radio traffic passed from the carrier was not recorded.

...
 
I haven't laughed this much in quite a while. Many thanks for those small stories. :PDT_Xtremez_30:
 
Once upon a time when Ballykelly was still light blue and home to three squadrons of the beast a Mk3 was thundering on take off for a jolly to Gib complete with the usual suspects on board in the form of groundcrew. T/O and landing positions for the lads included a harness anchored to the main spar (where I was) and a similar setup just ahead of the pilots, level with and between the rudder pedals. As we gathered speed a strange odour drifted back from up front followed by full braking as T/O was aborted. Once back to taxi speed a flying boot from either side administered a good kicking to the guilty party sitting between them who'd had a Guinness or three the night before and should have been banned from confined spaces.
All was well in the end though, tower informed abort was due to smell of burning which had now cleared and we got away at the second attempt. The star of the show was our rigger so you can be sure he had a well topped up elsan to empty when we finally arrived at Gib.
Shackletons NEVER Bothered ME!!:PDT_Xtremez_42:
 
We have a Shackleton here.
It's looked after by the Cornish Aviation Society.
Click here and then scroll down the page and then click on galleries for more pics.
If you ask Vim Fuego nicely he'll tell you about his part about it coming to St Mawgan!
 
My dad joined up in 1944 and his first role was an Air Gunner. He was assigned to Lancs and often found himself in the seat that points backwards with the big guns in it.
During long training sorties the crew used to get bored so to liven things up a bit the tail gunner would rotate the turret 90 degrees and open the door. Leaning out they could reach the elevator which, if it was given a good few shakes up and down would make the whole aireyplane porpoise through the sky and, with any luck, send the front end crew tumbling about like beans in a can.
Yep, the aircrew had different sets of rules back then as well :raf:

Later on he went on to crew Washingtons which were the RAF's B29 Superfortresses loaned from the yanks after he war. It was much more civilised than the Lanc being pressurised and the guns were remote controlled from a station in the centre fuselage. Unfortunately, if they ever got a hang up in the bomb bay, it was one of the gunners job to crawl down the little tunnel over the bomb bay, open a hatch at the end, edge around the lip of the bay (doors open mind :PDT_Xtremez_42: ) and kick the errant bomb free. He did it once but, when asked to do it again refused point blank saying something like..."so sack me then!"
 
Or 8 Sqn's zap:

"Eight screws are better than four blow-jobs"

:PDT_Xtremez_31: :PDT_Xtremez_31: :PDT_Xtremez_31: :PDT_Xtremez_31:
:PDT_Xtremez_31: :PDT_Xtremez_31: :PDT_Xtremez_31: :PDT_Xtremez_31:

See? Eight is better!
 
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