CATTS Ltd - Here for your civilian Part66 licence + A/C type training questions

[CATTS Ltd]

Hello all

My name is David Owen and I run a Part147 training school based in Northwich(near Manchester) called:

CATTS Ltd (www.catts.org.uk)

Our training school specialises in providing what we term ‘AircraftType Training’ for EASA Part 66 Licenced Engineers in the civilian world, wealso deliver HF, SFAR, EWIS, EGR, Borescope etc
I myself am a licenced engineer (I’m ex BA) and was until a year or soago the Training Manager for the Thomas Cook group.

I am also the Training Manager for Thales at Brize Norton for the newAirtanker A330 Project, so if you’re lucky enough to work at Brize, you canalso catch up with me there in person when I’m down (I’m down about 2-3 times amonth on average). And it is via someone there in the RAF who put me onto yourforum, which is a great forum by the way

We don’t offer basic licence training ourselves unfortunately (at themoment) but obviously I am familiar with that side of the training world also.

We are also the only Part147 Company that is ELCAS approved, so if you’releaving the forces soon, should you wish to use your credits to gain a typecourse, then of course we can help on that front
I’ll try and get on this forum at least 3 or 4 times a week, so if I don’tanswer immediately please bear with me!

This will either go one way or the other – I will either be swamped orthis will be the only post I ever do !

I don’t envisage being here as some sort of Guru, more hopefully justto help and advise you / point you in the right direction with your Licence /A/C Type related questions.

Or indeed if you want to know anything else about civilian aviation life,jobs, pay scales, do I need my own tools, do they provide safety boots, what’sit like etc etc !

Kind Regards

David Owen

Accountable Manager
Civil Aviation Technical Training Solutions Ltd
Units 7 - 8
Brickfields Business Centre
60 Manchester Road
Northwich
Cheshire
CW9 7LS
Tel: +44 (0) 1565 653745
Email: david@catts.org.uk
Web: www.catts.org.uk

 

[Keyser Söze]

"The ONLY ELCAS approved Pt 147 training provider"

A bold claim! Are you sure about that?

........erm I don't think so!!!!

for the "type" course what aircraft do you use for the practical aspects?

 

[CATTS Ltd]

Hi Keyser, Can you confirm who the others are ? ......... As far as we were aware we are the only type training company on the site ? .......... I know there are Part 66 basic (also 147, but a different part of the approval) but no one else doing Part147 A/C type training ? ........... We have contracts with many aircraft operators to provide access to aircraft if / when we require it ......... However you can still do theory, OJT and Practical separately. Its a misconception that ALL courses must be theory and practical. You can if you wish do the Theory in one place and the practical somewhere else ........ Kind Rgds David ............. sorry about the formatting, but I cant seem to press 'Enter' and move to a new line !

 

[Keyser Söze]

I was taking your quote of "only ELCAS approved Pt 147 training provider (coma)" literally.
Since as you have subsequently implied there are more. (AST Perth, LRTT, Barry college, etc etc) they offer training for the Basic licence requirements.

Now you have taken the time to amplify the point further , to state that you re the only ,,,,,,"ELCAS APPROVED Pt 147 "type" training provider" ,,,,, then that is much nearer the mark, however to my knowledge, LRTT also offer 'type' training on the A320, (they were advertising this late last year)

But a type course is no use without already holding either a B1 or B2 licence

As I'm sure you are aware the new EASA regulations mandate that the 'theoretical AND practical' training has to be successfully completed by the candidate LAE ,, ( within a Pt 147/145 organisation's approval) for an NAA (eg CAA ) to load the type onto their (ie the LAEs) licence. Therefore both aspects have to be completed and are not mutually exclusive (no more job cards etc with a , eg Pt 145 MRO to act as evidence) .. if I understand you correctly you're only offering the theory aspect, (apologies if i have misunderstood) and leaving the guys here with only half of the requirements ,,,, the hardest part to obtain is the practical. Furthermore, the "type" certificate has a life of 3 years and the LAE must satisfy the CAAs requirements to load onto the licence within that timeframe otherwise the type training expires.

if you would be kind enough to confirm whether you are able to offer both theory and practical (as required) then that would put any doubts to rest. Ps I think it's great that a "147 type training provider" has gained ELCAS approval and I'm sure there will be many customers from within all 3 branches of the forces. Best of luck.

 

[CATTS Ltd]

Hi Keyser

Thank you for your reply

To clarify: CATTS is a fully EASA approved Part147, TYPE training organisation

We offer THEORY, PRACTICAL and or a combination of both as / when required and available.


We also offer lots of other mandatory training such as HF, EWIS, Fuel Safety, H+S training, Manual Handling etc

We would disagree with you though, that a type course is of no use without a licence.

We feel any training is beneficial in aviation maintenance. You can never have too much information when it comes to safety is our opinion.

In civilian employment there are many roles within airlines that have non licenced engineers. LAE’s form a small part (albeit crucial) in the overall machine that sees the oversight and safety of the aircraft maintenance activity.

These other positions include roles such as, Development engineers, Reliability engineers, Maintrol engineers, Engine development, Planning engineers etc.

All of these positions require a high level of technical ability / aircraft knowledge but not necessarily a licence to perform the job required.

In that respect, we feel a type course by itself would still stand an engineer / techy in good stead, even if he or she didn’t or couldn’t add it to an EASA licence

There is also no requirement for an attendee to have a licence in their possession, so effectively anyone can attend a course, licenced or not (such as someone who is well on the way to achieving a licence etc)

However, we would obviously not recommend anyone to attend who was not technically competent, or looking into a position that would benefit from this training.

Regards who can conduct practical training, you are incorrect suggesting Practical training must solely be completed by / at a Part147 organisation.

The actual regulations require that practical training must be completed by an ‘approved organisation’

Obviously the preferred method is with a Part147 organisation like CATTS, and most if not all currently are Part147 organisations. But it is generally regarded that most Part145 organisations will eventually gain their own approval to conduct practical training in house (in fact Airtanker are looking into this option, as are several of our other customers also)

It is our belief that in the future virtually all Part145 companies will be offering the practical training themselves in house. This was certainly the route that the CAA has talked about, and as such going forward, we feel it will not be the big problem that it at first appears to be.

You also need to be aware that as the first type rating, you do still need to do a period of OJT in a part 145 facility (6 months nominally on the A/C type you are applying for) in addition to the theory and practical course. – you called this ‘job cards etc with a , eg Pt 145 MRO to act as evidence’ in your post. We now call this OJT

This may possibly be included in the period of basic Part145 OJT required for the issue of the basic licence, but you would have to check specifically with the authority issuing your Part66 licence to see what they would be willing to accept based on your previous experience.

I.e – we would suggest a techie who has been working on 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] line (is that what you call workshops?) should (we would imagine) require a longer period of civilian maintenance history, than say someone who has been working on Tristars, VC10’s and the Airtanker A330 aircraft for the last 3-5 years.

So to clarify

To get your basic licence

1. Pass all the EASA modules required
2. Provide adequate previous maintenance working history
3. Pay the fees and submit the paperwork

To get your first type rating on a brand new licence

1. Pass an approved Part147 - TYPE training course
2. Complete an APPROVED PRACTICAL type training course
3. Complete a period (nominally 6 months) of OJT on the type in question in a Part145 environment (doing jobs, collecting work cards etc for tasks you’ve done)
4. Pay the fees and submit the paperwork

To get any subsequent type ratings onto an existing licence

1. Pass an approved Part147 - TYPE training course
2. Complete an APPROVED PRACTICAL type training course
3. Pay the fees and submit the paperwork

Hope this helps

Kind Regards
The CATTS team
www.catts.org.uk
admin@catts.org.uk

​

 

[CATTS Ltd]

Did you know we can also offer a full suite of H&S training, manual handling and SMS (Safety Management Systems) training.

 

[CATTS Ltd]

Did you also know we offer Borescope and Engine ground running training ?

 

[CATTS Ltd]

Boeing Courses Coming Up

Boeing Courses Coming Up

Hello All, We have had an enquiry from one of our commercial customers to see if we can fill some external places they have on their course. We have B737 NG and NG to CL differences courses with spaces available. As we are an approved provider, we can accept your credits towards the course costs too ! .......... Contact us if this is of any use to you. Kind Regards CATTS

 

[I Look Like Kevin Costner]

I would go with Angel Training Systems..

Your company is fine for a course foir someone with a rating (you must have access to the aircraft you do practical courses for), however, unless its the Airtanker / 14 Sqn guys coming out, a/c type courses are a waste of money until one gets the basic (that can be more that one year). BTW you forgot to mention on your speel that practical courses are only a minimum of 2 weeks depending on the course and previous practical experience.. No EFIS, Pressurised aircraft (proper heavies , not one man FJ) of Prop experience, can make a 2 week course invalid..DT_Xtremez_07:

You also need to work for a company with an OJT package set up (not many) and authorised by the CAA.. Then get all the work in that 6 months period (only PART 147 orgs ever say that is possible and only one person I have ever know outside has done it in a year and he admits a fair bit was penned)

B1.1 in the real world..

 

[CATTS Ltd]

Hello ‘Kevin Costner' !
Thankyou for your post. Practical training is a minimum of 10 working days. Previoushistory or working experience has zero bearing on this. It is a fixed durationas detailed in EASA Part66 App III. Obviously if an individual wanted to domore you could technically do this, but there would be little point other thanto drain your wallet.
We havefull access to all aircraft we have approval for, and I would disagree with youin regards to attending an aircraft type course is a waste of time.
Thereare literally hundreds of other aviation maintenance related jobs like Engine Development,Airframe Development, Fleet planning, Maintrol, Reliability, Technical Servicesetc that do not require a licence to be able to do the role. Most however would require a level of technical knowledgeof the airframes in question. This would normally be a Type course.
We arenot trying to target anyone into using their credits with us, but I wouldstrongly argue that it would be better served for an individual to attend atype course than wasting it on something else they don’t need, but we oftenspeak to many RAF engineers (many who are still serving) who have their licencealready prior to leaving the forces anyway.
Regards OJT,this is something which will iron itself out we believe. Currently onlyapproved OJT providers as you suggest can ratify experience, however therumours in the training fraternity are that all Part145's will eventually beaccepted or gain approval easily to provide OJT in the future. But as you knowthe system works in strange ways often, so we will have to watch this closely.
KindRegards
CATTS

 

[I Look Like Kevin Costner]

Wrong... Read the regulation.

 

[I Look Like Kevin Costner]

All type courses are time limited to 3 years now and OJT requires 50% of tasks for initial type ratings. Unless you are working for a company with an approved scheme or arranged with the CAA to supply a personal package (I have seen that somebody has managed to do so with the UK CAA), any experience towards that has no bearing (no CAP 741 logsheets for ratings anymore). You haven't mentioned that have you. Personally doing a Type Course as leaving RAF prior to finding a job with that type is a waste of money.

As for minimum requirements for practical courses, my PART 147 practical certificate is not in my hands. I could not prove to them EFIS and Turboprop experieince so I didn't get it and THEY SHOWED ME THE PARAGRAPH IN THE REGULATION WHY NOT. Yet to work out with my company how to get it.. Do the course again as I have been working on the aircraft for 8 months since!DT_Xtremez_30:

THe PART 145 OJT is easy to set up.. Just takes somebody to write it up for the MOE and put it forward to the CAA. As I said I have heard an individual doing it himself. Rumours between PART 147 providers is purely that.

Maintorl / LMCs is the preserve of experienced type rated LAEs in most cases, doubt there are many companies that would take an RAF guy into that job (even though anyone having done Rects Controller or Eng Ops wouldn't do badly). Powerplant managers etc do not need to do a type course to do their job, I have never heard of it, Gen Fam prehaps but not a full type course.

 

[Keyser Söze]

Its no surprise that CATTs disagree,,,,,they're selling something, the more customers they have the more money they make.

There is no disagreement regarding whether training (per se') is of benefit,, however the central question is why would perspective customers invest the considerable £'s involved , have to follow Pt147 framework, pass-rates etc when they don't have a licence to load the type onto.

It is my opinion that there are more appropriate academic courses which are far more suitable and have wider appeal (BSc etc), than the very specific contents of a 'type course'

Some of the examples CATTs quote are filled with experienced LAE's at my employers. (Maintrol particularly so).

We'll just have to agree to disagree,,,,except that I'm not selling anything.

 

[I Look Like Kevin Costner]

Type course for a rating. Sorry if you disagree CATTS but thats the reason you would develop the course in the first place. If I had an initial rating and an ELC left, I might think about it.. ELCs all gone.. Agree with your post too Keyser.. Someone else who knows the real world and tells what it actually is like.

 

[CATTS Ltd]

Hi Everyone

Just for info

We are pleased to offer the following courses (should they be of any use to you)

B737 CL (B1/B2 Theory) .... UK .... NOV 14
B737 CL (B1/B2 Practical) .... UK .... JAN 15

B757 (B1/B2 Theory) .... UK .... JAN 15
B757 CL (B1/B2 Practical) .... UK .... MAR 15

B737 CL to NG Diffs (B1/B2 Theory) .... UK .... MAR 15
B737 CL to NG Diffs (B1/B2 Practical) .... UK .... APR 15

A320 (B1/B2 Theory) .... MAN .... FEB 15
A320 (B1/B2 Practical) .... MAN .... APR 15

A330 (B1/B2 Theory) .... BZN .... MAY 15

A330 (B1 Theory) .... BZN .... JUNE 15*
A330 (B2 Theory) .... BZN .... JUNE 15*
A330 (B1/B2 Practical) .... BZN .... MAY 15*

(* Restrictions may apply, ask us for details)


OK, thanks for the previous comments guys, but to reiterate we are not just posting on here to make money. Obviously we are a business but the Military ELC stuff accounts for less than 1% of our turnover.

Respectfully we are not on here looking for an argument, we are genuinely here to try and help you all move into the commercial world easier

We are a fully EASA (UK CAA) approved Part147 training organisation and we also hold GCAA (Emirates CAA) CAR-147 approval. We also have anoffice in Malaysia with a local Part-147 business partnership. We sit on several aviation counsels in this country and abroad and work with many leading companies such as BA, JET2, Boeing, Airtanker, Transaero, Monarch, Thomas Cook etc etc. We speak to the UK CAA almost daily and we are also full members of the European Aviation Maintenance Training Committee (EAMTC) the industry leading body that works along side EASA to draft and edit the regulations ……. Hence with all due respect we would suggest the chances are we are probably correct and we do know what we are talking about.

A big issue with forums is that the regulations can literally change daily (as does the UK CAA stance and interpretation) especially since the last regulation change (1149).

For example, The stance as to what’s required for practical training has shifted nearly 180 degrees within the last 8-10 months as to how the UK CAA want to see this being performed.

So what you may have been told in person 10 months ago, might not necessarily be the same as is required today. We as an approved organisation, receive these changes as they happen, discuss the intent with the UK CAA, our industry colleagues and partners and respond as required.

So everyone PLEASE !!!! don’t believe everything you hear in the crew room from the local expert and be careful as to what you re-post arguing it is fact …….Listen to the industry experts ..... As we all know in this industry, a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous!

For info the last forces guy who was with us used his ELC's (whilst on the cusp of leaving) to do our B737CL and NG and is now a B1 LAE with JET2 working overseas based abroad in the sun!

We also have a course running now as we type, with a RAF guy on using his ELC and he is still in the forces about to leave as well.

Kind Regards
The CATTS team