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Demise of the Harrier

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"Literally a couple of days before we broke up for Christmas..."

Just the kind of bloke you want fighting your corner.
 
I was fortunate to have worked on Tornado, Jaguar and Harrier.

Tornado: retired, yet defined and dominated the RAF of the 80's and 90's and indeed the 2000's. Many people reminisce about WIWOT.

Jaguar: retired with much sentiment and the lamented closure of RAF favourite base, RAF Coltishall.

Harrier: retired and yet 10 years later, there still exists a palpable anger about the demise of the aircraft. Why?
 
Talk Wrench said:
I was fortunate to have worked on Tornado, Jaguar and Harrier.

Tornado: retired, yet defined and dominated the RAF of the 80's and 90's and indeed the 2000's. Many people reminisce about WIWOT.

Jaguar: retired with much sentiment and the lamented closure of RAF favourite base, RAF Coltishall.

Harrier: retired and yet 10 years later, there still exists a palpable anger about the demise of the aircraft. Why?
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Because at the time the Tonka and Jags were retired they had just about reached the end of their natural lifespan with little further development that could be done to extend their lives further. There was also a clear successor to fill the capability. The Harrier, on the other hand could have been extended and there was no immediate replacement available - hence we had a capability gap, brought about for financial reasons alone.
 
I was on 1(F) when that happened. It was brutal. Nobody knew it was happening to us until the camera crews turned up at Cottesmore, closely followed by the AOC who briefed us in person. He was very very candid. It was purely a financial decision. MOD could not afford to maintain 3 fast jet variants. Typhoon was the new kid on the block and they needed one other to maintain operations worldwide as Typhoon got up to speed. There simply werent enough harriers to undertake that task otherwise the Tonka would have gone.
 
The hoo-haa around Harriers is misplaced IMO. Unless you are raging a war against the fruit throwing tribes of the lower Congo you are going to lose jets in the modern battlefield. I have watched it with mine own eyes on mine own screen as Harriers entered the Red Flag battle ground then listened to the kill-calls as they were all picked off way before they go to anywhere near their objectives.

They were cool for a time and as long as you have air superiority (incl. hand helds) then its great platform to move some mud and has that adaptability to operate from a road or clearing but, way too visible and way too slow now.
 
Vim_Fuego said:
The hoo-haa around Harriers is misplaced IMO. Unless you are raging a war against the fruit throwing tribes of the lower Congo you are going to lose jets in the modern battlefield. I have watched it with mine own eyes on mine own screen as Harriers entered the Red Flag battle ground then listened to the kill-calls as they were all picked off way before they go to anywhere near their objectives.

They were cool for a time and as long as you have air superiority (incl. hand helds) then its great platform to move some mud and has that adaptability to operate from a road or clearing but, way too visible and way too slow now.
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Tell the Argies.
 
The great thinkers in the Air Ministry didn't want the Harrier, if you're not supersonic you're nowt, only that isn't true.

And we're not talking about taking a chance with a design on the drawing board, we're talking about a proven platform that had just been upgraded. The Harrier didn't go to the scrapyard when withdrawn, it went straight into front line service with the Yanks.
To say it isn't/wasn't good enough is rewriting history. As the article says, it was a financial decision. Cost of everything, value of nothing, etc.
 
Rocket_Ronster said:
The great thinkers in the Air Ministry didn't want the Harrier, if you're not supersonic you're nowt, only that isn't true.

And we're not talking about taking a chance with a design on the drawing board, we're talking about a proven platform that had just been upgraded. The Harrier didn't go to the scrapyard when withdrawn, it went straight into front line service with the Yanks.
To say it isn't/wasn't good enough is rewriting history. As the article says, it was a financial decision. Cost of everything, value of nothing, etc.
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Of course it was financial, there were cuts to be made. Cutting an entire type saved the cost of a full support chain, not just the squadrons and ultimately it protected more RAF roles than otherwise might have been cut too. I believe the Navy was offered the opportunity to take on the cost but declined.

It was brutal but it was the right decision, Tornado was more than capable of replacing Harrier in the CAS role but Harrier couldn't do what Tornado could. Numbers alone decided that. As Mutty said, there wasn't enough of them to undertake the full spectrum of roles, Stormshadow, RAPTOR are just two examples
 
I Look Like Kevin Costner said:
Dinosaur thinking on your part. As usual.
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Well, if the alternative is to spend millions on upgrading a bit of kit, billions on aircaftless aircraft carriers, then give the kit away to another country, yes I'll take being a dinosaur.

This wasnt like selling off a nearly life-ex destroyer to Brazil, or a carrier to India, those Harriers went to the USofA.
 
Rocket_Ronster said:
Well, if the alternative is to spend millions on upgrading a bit of kit, billions on aircaftless aircraft carriers, then give the kit away to another country, yes I'll take being a dinosaur.

This wasnt like selling off a nearly life-ex destroyer to Brazil, or a carrier to India, those Harriers went to the USofA.
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Leaping heaps, because if you worked on them, they were. RSS CAT 3 on every minor.
 
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