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Datalink Squirrel

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This was announced yesterday - from Eastern daily Press.
I love RAF equipment, so robust :PDT_Xtremez_34:

Lotus turbine poised for refusal
CELIA WIGG
24 October 2007

Controversial proposals to develop a windfarm at Norfolk sports-car manufacturer Lotus's test track have been recommended for refusal by district planners.
Green-energy company Ecotricity is seeking consent for three 120m turbines that would generate enough power to meet all Lotus needs at its Hethel premises, near Wymondham, with spare capacity to supply more than 1,000 homes through the National Grid.
Producing renewable power on site would also enable Lotus to minimise its carbon- dioxide emissions which contribute to global warming.
Objectors include the Ministry of Defence, which claims the turbines would cause "unacceptable interference" to the air- defence radar at RAF Trimingham, as well as neighbouring residents who fear their lives will be blighted by the structures.
Among the concerns are the visual impact over large areas of unspoilt countryside, the industrial nature of the development, potential noise and shadow flicker, and the effect on farm animals and wildlife.
There have been 111 protest letters and six in support.
Ecotricity has submitted an environmental statement, addressing many of the issues. But John Tomlinson, South Norfolk Council's head of planning, believes the impact on the air-defence radar cannot be mitigated, although the scheme is acceptable in all other respects.
A separate application for a temporary 50m wind-measuring mast is tipped for approval.
Both applications are due to be determined at a special planning meeting on Tuesday at the council's Long Stratton headquarters.
Alan Benstead, chairman of the campaign group fighting the development, said: "The news advising that SNC planning officers are to recommend refusal is welcome.
"However, in view of the Defence Estates' objection, it is difficult to reconcile the decision to recommend approval for the erection of an anemometer on this site."
Dale Vince, Ecotricity's managing director, stressed that the Trimingham radar system was due to be replaced early next year specifically to solve problems with inter-ference from wind turbines. WOT?!
"We are very pleased that the scheme has got the all- clear in other respects and we are talking to the MoD right now to apply a Grampian condition." This, he said, would mean approval could be granted on condition that no development takes place until the radar station has been relocated.
 
Datalink Squirrel said:
This was announced yesterday - from Eastern daily Press.
I love RAF equipment, so robust :PDT_Xtremez_34:

Lotus turbine poised for refusal
CELIA WIGG
24 October 2007

Controversial proposals to develop a windfarm at Norfolk sports-car manufacturer Lotus's test track have been recommended for refusal by district planners.
Green-energy company Ecotricity is seeking consent for three 120m turbines that would generate enough power to meet all Lotus needs at its Hethel premises, near Wymondham, with spare capacity to supply more than 1,000 homes through the National Grid.
Producing renewable power on site would also enable Lotus to minimise its carbon- dioxide emissions which contribute to global warming.
Objectors include the Ministry of Defence, which claims the turbines would cause "unacceptable interference" to the air- defence radar at RAF Trimingham, as well as neighbouring residents who fear their lives will be blighted by the structures.
Among the concerns are the visual impact over large areas of unspoilt countryside, the industrial nature of the development, potential noise and shadow flicker, and the effect on farm animals and wildlife.
There have been 111 protest letters and six in support.
Ecotricity has submitted an environmental statement, addressing many of the issues. But John Tomlinson, South Norfolk Council's head of planning, believes the impact on the air-defence radar cannot be mitigated, although the scheme is acceptable in all other respects.
A separate application for a temporary 50m wind-measuring mast is tipped for approval.
Both applications are due to be determined at a special planning meeting on Tuesday at the council's Long Stratton headquarters.
Alan Benstead, chairman of the campaign group fighting the development, said: "The news advising that SNC planning officers are to recommend refusal is welcome.
"However, in view of the Defence Estates' objection, it is difficult to reconcile the decision to recommend approval for the erection of an anemometer on this site."
Dale Vince, Ecotricity's managing director, stressed that the Trimingham radar system was due to be replaced early next year specifically to solve problems with inter-ference from wind turbines. WOT?!
"We are very pleased that the scheme has got the all- clear in other respects and we are talking to the MoD right now to apply a Grampian condition." This, he said, would mean approval could be granted on condition that no development takes place until the radar station has been relocated.
Click to expand...


You must have spent too much time in the Data Link world but big spining blades not too far from ANY type of primary radar will produce permanent echoes as a minimum as well as scattering the beam so as to make any returns unreliable and likely to be processed out anyway. The MOD are objecting to any windfarm development near any radar head, there are Flight Safety implications involved and whilst we all welcome the search for renewable energy there has to be sense involved, or do we wait until an aircraft stoves in and then say "I told you so"?

JAF, there is not enough research into the spinning angled blade/radar return problem but in theory it would be like putting a large disc in front of the radar head and the associated problems of seeing beyond it.
 
What distance are we talking about 20-30 miles from the head to the farm ?
Ground clutter blank would solve that ...
 
JAFAD666 said:
What distance are we talking about 20-30 miles from the head to the farm ?
Ground clutter blank would solve that ...
Click to expand...

I heard about this from ILLKC who's brother in law works at Lotus a couple of weeks back and I explaned the reasons for the MOD objections which are very valid if you know anything about the effects of buildings on radar coverage. There is also a proposal to build an Eco Town powered by wind turbines on the remains of RAF Coltishall, I think the chances of the MoD OK'ing the planning for this one is about zero as well, for the same reasons.
 
Datalink Squirrel said:
as well as neighbouring residents who fear their lives will be blighted by the structures.
Among the concerns are the visual impact over large areas of unspoilt countryside, the industrial nature of the development, potential noise and shadow flicker, and the effect on farm animals and wildlife.
Click to expand...

I'm the completely wrong trade to comment on the technicalities, but this bit reall p1ssed me off::/:

"Ooooh, the 3 windmills will be uglt and might scare the animals." I guess the tw4ts have never lived near somewhere like Didcot. THAT is a fecking eyesore.

These people need to get a grip. Bet they're all fecking minted and retired in their countryside retreats.:PDT_Xtremez_32:
 
LAte 80's - the farmer who owned the land to the east of Staxton was refused planning permission on the grounds of interference with the 93 - the blades are big enough and moving fast enough to cause quite large returns even if the MTI is working
 
Blade Size/Rate

Blade Size/Rate

That is the problem in a nutshell. Clutter maps should remove the PEs from the tower but the uncertainty of detection of any targets behind the blades are what causes the flight safety concerns. Not so much of a problem on the East Coast if you are flying in D323 complex but a problem if you are controlling overland in, lets just say OTA E, where radar coverage is a conundrum at the best of times. Add into this that we are talking multiple turbines and the chances of getting accurate predictions, let alone coverage, slip tremendouly

I know that we can limit radar services to a FIS but we still need some clue as to where the aeroplanes really are to give even this.

This just looks at it from a control perspective (did I really do that?), the surveillance side would be even more of a guess. With Homeland Security the main thrust of what we do day-to-day would you be willing to guess the radar coverage available after the installation of a wind farm?
 
NotAnIDOYet said:
That is the problem in a nutshell. Clutter maps should remove the PEs from the tower but the uncertainty of detection of any targets behind the blades are what causes the flight safety concerns. Not so much of a problem on the East Coast if you are flying in D323 complex but a problem if you are controlling overland in, lets just say OTA E, where radar coverage is a conundrum at the best of times. Add into this that we are talking multiple turbines and the chances of getting accurate predictions, let alone coverage, slip tremendouly

I know that we can limit radar services to a FIS but we still need some clue as to where the aeroplanes really are to give even this.

This just looks at it from a control perspective (did I really do that?), the surveillance side would be even more of a guess. With Homeland Security the main thrust of what we do day-to-day would you be willing to guess the radar coverage available after the installation of a wind farm?
Click to expand...

Draw a line from Trimingham to Wymondham on a map of the UK and see what 9/11 type targets are about 100 miles on. Answer - Lots of them, plus there is the fact that said area also has the largest concentration of civil air traffic in the UK. No surprise that the MoD said 'no way'.
 
norfolkred1 said:
Sorry fella the positive and negative doppler effect from the blades will still give enough information for the radar to plot form....
Click to expand...

The 93 has an automatic way of dealing with that problem and failing that you can fix it with the 'techie method' of getting rid of clutter.

Datalink Squirrel said:
Dale Vince, Ecotricity's managing director, stressed that the Trimingham radar system was due to be replaced early next year specifically to solve problems with inter-ference from wind turbines. WOT?!
Click to expand...

Now this is total Bollox, The Type 93 is being replaced, but thats because its old and getting too costly to maintain, not because wind turbines cause inter-ference (Type 93 Air Defence Radar Capability Replacement Programme (T93 CRP)). Enter the Type 102
 
MAINJAFAD said:
The 93 has an automatic way of dealing with that problem and failing that you can fix it with the 'techie method' of getting rid of clutter.



Now this is total Bollox, The Type 93 is being replaced, but thats because its old and getting too costly to maintain, not because wind turbines cause inter-ference (Type 93 Air Defence Radar Capability Replacement Programme (T93 CRP)). Enter the Type 102
Click to expand...


You fix it, I'll operate it. And if 'techie method' is available why is it still visble and plotting
 
I have been involved in some trial work that has taken a mobile radar to a wind farm to see the results.

which are quite wacky, the rotors on a wind farm can cause gaping holes in your radar coverage. Different designs of blades, give different results. If you were to google windfarm and caa you would come across some reports. Bottom line is that this isnt a normal processing problem.
 
Northern Circuit said:
I have been involved in some trial work that has taken a mobile radar to a wind farm to see the results.

which are quite wacky, the rotors on a wind farm can cause gaping holes in your radar coverage. Different designs of blades, give different results. If you were to google windfarm and caa you would come across some reports. Bottom line is that this isnt a normal processing problem.
Click to expand...


************************************

Surely there wil be radar reflections due to the moving rotor blades + blade motion will create Doppler freq shift on the returns?

What is the radar cross section of the blades? & how will they appear to the operator? I would hzard a a guess as short flashes

How does the spectrogram look for the RCS?

Anyway guys for the MTI issue. Scattering like this would be above the current detection threshold & would probably pass through any MTI filters.

Sorry. forgot to mention to include with the rotating blades, but also the blade diameter & the angle of the blade at time of rotation.
 
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Hi, been away for a while. If Lotus is perceived to be such a big problem, what about the wind farm off Gt Yarmouth?
I've chatted to a couple of engineers there who know nothing about affects on radar, but, they did pass on interesting info about how they're continually replacing parts and some of them standing idle for days/weeks/months due to unserviceability. (Or was that a load of hot air?)
 
Datalink Squirrel said:
Hi, been away for a while. If Lotus is perceived to be such a big problem, what about the wind farm off Gt Yarmouth?
I've chatted to a couple of engineers there who know nothing about affects on radar, but, they did pass on interesting info about how they're continually replacing parts and some of them standing idle for days/weeks/months due to unserviceability. (Or was that a load of hot air?)
Click to expand...


To qoute a phrase 'Location, Location, Location' When you say engineers are you talking about Lotus, Great Yarmouth or T93 Engineers?
 
The MOD are also objecting to a wind farm development near Boulmer, similar reasons: Here
 
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