Hypothetical Question.

[vim_fuego]

Now then techies...Here's a chance to show what you know.

Lets say I've just won a shed load of cash and I wanted to open up my own business (I haven't by the way...we're in character now) flying and operating planes...

Lets say I purchased two of these:

http://www.hawkerbeechcraft.com/military_and_special_mission/maritime_patrol.aspx

I think I want to fly at least one of not both of them two sorties a day...one in the morning for 4-5 hours and the same in a PM slot...7 days a week.

How many techies to keep them up and running? the operating environment would be hot and dusty with some salty air thrown in...If they were kept miles from civilisation how much of the servicings (primarys etc or whatever you call them these days) could be carried out in theatre before you would have to take it somewhere for a proper look-see?

Any gen really appreciated...Just interested tis all.

 

[gemarriott]

With Kevin/Dale supervised by S2 I see no need for anyone else.

Oh perhaps a lapdancer to keep them amused after both kites pile into the drink.DT_Xtremez_42:

 

[Northern Monkey]

Now then techies...Here's a chance to show what you know.

Lets say I've just won a shed load of cash and I wanted to open up my own business (I haven't by the way...we're in character now) flying and operating planes...

Lets say I purchased two of these:

http://www.hawkerbeechcraft.com/military_and_special_mission/maritime_patrol.aspx

I think I want to fly at least one of not both of them two sorties a day...one in the morning for 4-5 hours and the same in a PM slot...7 days a week.

How many techies to keep them up and running? the operating environment would be hot and dusty with some salty air thrown in...If they were kept miles from civilisation how much of the servicings (primarys etc or whatever you call them these days) could be carried out in theatre before you would have to take it somewhere for a proper look-see?

Any gen really appreciated...Just interested tis all.

For a start you would need two shifts of techies (possibly three). One shift would see through the mornings programme and possibly some of the afternoon. The other would possibly see through the afternoon programme as well as looking after the aircraft when it finished flying, in terms of servicing and fault rectification. A third might be needed to cover through the night. It would also have cost implications dependent on whether military or civvie. If your operating 7 days a week you will be paying more for some days of the week. The amount of techies would depend on the aircraft (whether its more airframe biased or avionics). You would also require some form of management and a supply system. Due to the amount of flying the aircraft may require work in between the morning and afternoon programme. This may simply take the form of a servicing or minor rectification. It might be more than that depending on the serviceability state of the aircraft. For example, you might lose your afternoon flying if the aircraft is u/s. Due to the environment you have specified, you may find that some jobs are carried out more often due to said environment (i.e. salty air, hot conditions). The periodicity of major servicings (Primary's etc) may be altered dependent on the aircraft type. It depends what you define as a proper look see. A primary on a lot of aircraft could be carried out imo in this environment, but again it depends on the aircraft type/ongoing issues with the aircraft. You would need to consider a replacement aircraft for the period of any rectification or more in depth servicing in order to meet the flying programme. You would also need assistance from outside agencies with things such as specialist inspections (NDT and the like). This merely scratches the surface if you are operating in a similar manner to a military eng sqn.

 

[Very Heavy very Humble]

Just a thought, is it better to lease than to buy?

 

[rest have risen above me]

I suggest you go and ask the same question on the BAE forums. They are the UKs leading agency in providing bespoke aviation solutions. I suspect that the initial figure for a maintenance package will be very reasonable but they haven't got a great track record on timely deliveries so I'd double the figure straight away and expect to wait a while.

 

[Rigga]

to quote the inevitable:
"To be a Millionaire in aviation, first you need to be a Multi-Millionaire..."

Only Fools and Horses (Rodney's?) with more money that sense would try to buy a Bizjet - I don't know anyone or any company that owns jets anymore. 5-10 year dry leases are more the norm.

You are more likely buy helicopters and keep them going for 10/15 years, for whatever use.

Only the MOD buy all their aircraft because no-one will lease a full military aircraft. Those with Leases (Shawbury heli's, C-17, Gulf Jets, Beechcraft, etc.) are 'properly' governed and maintained to the Lease companies rules, not by military rules. The cost of correcting military maintenance and practices would write-off all these aircraft.

The minimum techies you need in none. But then you won't be able to do anything without help from approved LINE or BASE maintenance organisations outside your control. You'll be at mercy of their list of priorities.

A more clever operator will have their own Part 145 organisation integrated into their AOC organisation in which case you'll need at least one engineer, who has to have all the approvals needed for your LINE maintenance. Good for average 400 hours flying between B Checks.

Commercially, you'll be aiming at about 2000-2500 FH/year to make a profit.

Then you will need BASE maintenance. Two engineers, again with all the requisite approvals need to maintain your aircraft between them.

They won't be cheap, at about the same as your Line Pilots.

Of course you will also need to send all the bits off to approved maintenance workshops to get their scheduled manitenance completed, unless you want to get a Part 145 for base maintenance too, and all those items added to your 145 capability.

Think about what you want really, really, hard before you wish for it. And then think some more - Flying is not cheap, sport.

To get a detailed answer you really need to put some "real detail" into your request.

Give me a PM if you wish.


PS1 - BAE Systems CIVIL Aviation will give a quote - but don't believe it's a good one!

PS2 - I believe Northern Monkey is talking of "Military shifts" - Civil aircraft don't need that sort of coverage.

 

[Downsizer]

Do you need Part 145 if you buy them and run them as Military AC?

 

[grumpyoldb]

Maybe Vim is trying to copy Jensen Button into business..................

http://www.gridcrasher.com/index.ph...utton-first-european-buyer-for-hondas-new-jet

The Englishman has ordered a pair of the twin-engined jets, at a cost of around £2m each

 

[Rigga]

If you want to use them comercially (e.g. to hire them out to a military need) then the main idea is to make a profit.

All commercial air transport (aka CAT) aircraft are mandated to have an AOC and maintenance from part 145 approved organisations.

To make a profit you need to have a reasonably priced service or a service that no other operator has (print your own money)

In either case there will be a time when your service is no longer desired and you can no longer make your profit from your assets. If they are your assets you may not be able to sell them - instant loss in profit margin. If they are leased assets you give them back and cut your losses with a return fee.

Put simply...When moving house would you:
a. Buy a removals wagon?
b. Rebuild your car to do it?
c. Hire the right vehicle to do it?

Mto's & engo's need not answer.

 

[metimmee]

If you want to use them comercially (e.g. to hire them out to a military need) then the main idea is to make a profit.

All commercial air transport (aka CAT) aircraft are mandated to have an AOC and maintenance from part 145 approved organisations.

To make a profit you need to have a reasonably priced service or a service that no other operator has (print your own money)

In either case there will be a time when your service is no longer desired and you can no longer make your profit from your assets. If they are your assets you may not be able to sell them - instant loss in profit margin. If they are leased assets you give them back and cut your losses with a return fee.

Put simply...When moving house would you:
a. Buy a removals wagon?
b. Rebuild your car to do it?
c. Hire the right vehicle to do it?

Mto's & engo's need not answer.

If I was moving house every day for 5 hours, 365 days a year, I might consider buying my own wagon. Especially if I can modify the vehicle to suit my needs.

Providing the aircraft is maintained iaw the civ regs, you'll be able to sell one easily, they cant build them quick enough.

 

[vim_fuego]

to quote the inevitable:
"To be a Millionaire in aviation, first you need to be a Multi-Millionaire..."

Only Fools and Horses (Rodney's?) with more money that sense would try to buy a Bizjet - I don't know anyone or any company that owns jets anymore. 5-10 year dry leases are more the norm.

You are more likely buy helicopters and keep them going for 10/15 years, for whatever use.

Only the MOD buy all their aircraft because no-one will lease a full military aircraft. Those with Leases (Shawbury heli's, C-17, Gulf Jets, Beechcraft, etc.) are 'properly' governed and maintained to the Lease companies rules, not by military rules. The cost of correcting military maintenance and practices would write-off all these aircraft.

The minimum techies you need in none. But then you won't be able to do anything without help from approved LINE or BASE maintenance organisations outside your control. You'll be at mercy of their list of priorities.

A more clever operator will have their own Part 145 organisation integrated into their AOC organisation in which case you'll need at least one engineer, who has to have all the approvals needed for your LINE maintenance. Good for average 400 hours flying between B Checks.

Commercially, you'll be aiming at about 2000-2500 FH/year to make a profit.

Then you will need BASE maintenance. Two engineers, again with all the requisite approvals need to maintain your aircraft between them.

They won't be cheap, at about the same as your Line Pilots.

Of course you will also need to send all the bits off to approved maintenance workshops to get their scheduled manitenance completed, unless you want to get a Part 145 for base maintenance too, and all those items added to your 145 capability.

Think about what you want really, really, hard before you wish for it. And then think some more - Flying is not cheap, sport.

To get a detailed answer you really need to put some "real detail" into your request.

Give me a PM if you wish.


PS1 - BAE Systems CIVIL Aviation will give a quote - but don't believe it's a good one!

PS2 - I believe Northern Monkey is talking of "Military shifts" - Civil aircraft don't need that sort of coverage.

Thanks Rigga...certainly food for thought.

 

[FOMz]

You would also need a decent Flight Scheduler as well to ensure that the aircraft was maximised and all crew and flight hour rules were adhered to............... now I wonder where you could find one of them. DT_Xtremez_14:

 

[grumpyoldb]

Vim's just picking everyone's brains so he can set up Microsoft Flight Simulator X a bit better. DT_Xtremez_14:

 

[Yer Maw]

I suggest you go and ask the same question on the BAE forums. They are the UKs leading agency in providing bespoke aviation solutions. I suspect that the initial figure for a maintenance package will be very reasonable but they haven't got a great track record on timely deliveries so I'd double the figure straight away and expect to wait a while.

They would of course want to charge you just for breathing the same air as them, let alone providing you with a solution.

 

[I Look Like Kevin Costner]

You could operate such aircraft to FAR 121 regulations depending on where the aircraft and AOC are registered. However the maintenance requirements are very similar to EASA regs (A&P techs, FAR 145 repair stations instead of PART 145 maint orgs/ Part 66 certifiers). Still expensive.

 

[Throatarea]

VIM, I think its already been done.

 

[windingdown]

VIM, I think its already been done.

If your looking for suitabily experienced techies............I can provide..

 

[Copterdoctor]

If your looking for suitabily experienced techies............I can provide..

Mmmmm might be interested in this one myself windingdown, might have a type rating on my license for this. We know a few others who might be able to help to, come on boys you know who you are, get posting.