RAF Rapiers in the Falklands Conflict

[CWO_Rtd]

How many argy aircraft were brought down, by Rockape Rapiers, during the Conflict?

How many were brought down, by Army Rapiers, during the same war?


The reason why I ask, is that an ex Royal Marine Officer I was speaking to, the other night, claims that no enemy aircraft were brought down by the Rapier batterys. But that still don't stop some of the units boasting large numbers at celebration dos apparently.

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

looks like 2!

check this link out and scroll down to combat history... isnt google great

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapier_missile DT_Xtremez_32:

 

[wobbly]

Sunday 23rd May 1982

a48] - A-4B Skyhawk of FAA Grupo 5 shot down over San Carlos Water by unknown SAM (1.50 pm). Claims that day include "Broadsword" Sea Wolf, "Antelope" Sea Cat, and land-based Rapiers and Blowpipe. Lt Guadagnini killed.

Monday 24th May 1982

a53] - A-4C Skyhawk of FAA Grupo 4 damaged over San Carlos Water by ship and ground-based air defences and crashed into King George Bay, West Falkland on flight home (1.30 pm). Claims that day include "Argonaut" and "Fearless" Sea Cat, and Rapier and Blowpipe SAM's. Lt Bono lost.

Tuesday 25th May 1982

[a55] - A-4C Skyhawk of FAA Grupo 4 destroyed over San Carlos Water by a variety of weapons, claims including small arms fire, "Yarmouth" Sea Cat, and Rapier and Blowpipe SAM's (12.30 pm). Lt Lucero ejected.

Saturday 29th May 1982

[a61] - Dagger A of FAA Grupo 6 shot down over San Carlos Water by Rapier SAM (12.00 pm]. Lt Bernhardt killed


So at least 1 confirmed rapier kill out of all that.

Was the Army operating Rapier back then anyway? I remember the original rapier being absolutely crap at shooting down fast moving aircraft.

Any regiment lads care to comment?

 

[supersnake092]

i do belive the Army were opperating a couple of rapiers back in the Falklands but there are several reasons for the poor kill ratio. Firstly the kit was a bit poor at shooting down fast moving jets as mentioned earlier ( cold war wisdom go for the bombers). Secondly those wonderfully bright engineers in white hall didn't concider the the fact that the argies were flying french built jets. The radar software frquently identified the argie jets as friendly (more cold war logic go for the ruskies) and it took a while to get the patches in place( not peresonal experiance told by ex 16 sqn rock and my Bsm when i was with 105 reg RA (no army jokes please) as he was on rapiers befor joining 105 and going onto javlin) causing more grief for the lads and lastly the terrain with the rapiers poor dicrimination over hilly terrain and the fact that they were poorly sited in the firs place

 

[cockneyrock]

lastly the terrain with the rapiers poor dicrimination over hilly terrain and the fact that they were poorly sited in the firs place

From what I understand (not speaking from experience as a cloud punching missile monkey), one of the main problems was terrain. The units were sited on to of hills to allow the radar to at its most effective, however, the Argies conducted all their air attacks at low level and often approached down the valleys. As I understand it, the radar picked the enemy ac up fine but the weapon system could not depress far enough top engage targets below it in the valleys.

On another note, I understand that "Inter Service Politics" played a major role. From what I have read (don't ask where, I can't remember) I seam to recall that the Army took the lead in air defence and decided that the RAF Regt units would conduct a relief in place of the army units in order that they could push forward with the lead elements, however, logic would say that the sensible method would have been to have the RAF Regt and RA units "leap frog" each other to ensure sufficient cover.

As I say, all of the above is drawn from things I have read, people I have spoken to over the years. None of it is based on fact or experience so I can't vouch for its accuracy.

 

[SPECCIE t**t]

I seem to remeber reading that there was a problem with getting the units serviceble after the sea journey down south (something to do with salt water). Again cold war planning a chanel crossing is not exactly the Atlantic is it.

 

[rockydinosaurus]

Raf Rapier In The Falklands

Raf Rapier In The Falklands

As one that was there just at the end of the war, I can recollect quite well at some of the problems we had with Rapier in those days, If you are interested READ ON if not Go to another thread.!!!!! DT_Xtremez_30:

The Major problem with Rapier at this time was it did not like the long Journey South to get over this problem we in the RAF Regiment decided to keep the system in situ once deployed there on site. It didn't like the extreme weather conditions being delicate electronic wiggly amps and all that. It was during the WAR it was sited in places that was too high and couldn't depress the missiles far enough down to engage aircraft, and to top it all off. I did see an Army Rapier covered in chicken wire and peat Sods and they wondered why they only got 7km Radar Coverage and not the Maximum 14km they should have got. Don't forget this was the First time Rapier had ever been deployed in a War situation SO LESSONS HAD TO BE LEARNED albeit they should have done further extensive trials before bringing it into service, However it must be said it was a great detterent. The spares that were needed to keep it running were far and few between and a copule of Rapiers were used for spares, including my own kit that was a shell only NO ELECTRONICS inside at all everything was removed to keep other systems going. need I say more. SO there you have it I could go on for hours but would only bore you with details DT_Xtremez_28:

 

[davozz1]

Army repsonse

Army repsonse

This is meant as no disrepect or a wah etc....but what I remember...I joined T battery the day they got back from down south. I was not there but striaght from the horses mouth.

Rapier FSA was deployed, this stuff in 1982 was not reliable in any sense of the word. Lucky to pass daily tests without something major going wrong.

The short prep prior to embarking in the UK did not go well hence equipment deployed was not all serviceable and with FSA turn it off move it lucky if it did n;t need a long visit to the workshop. Salt spray well it might have made things worse, but really not much could have been worse. FSB was good stuff, and that shgould have been deployed, but no ARMY unit in the UK had FSB outside training schools.

I deployed in 1983 for a few months down south and even with good support it was a nightmare.

Why was n't RAF Regt Deployed earlier, probably logistics, supplying fuel etc was hard enough, the boys on the hills were starving most of the time, only enough heli lift for fuel and even then common to backpack jerrycans spares etc. Maybe if the conveyer had not been hit a different story. Also I think there was an issue with different op procedures and the RA units more likely to open fire on aircraft, op doctrine. RAF Regt used to working near frendlies, but that maybe more inter service rivalry.

Another issue was the interference from all the radars, we caused problems with RN and vive versa.

Later with the advance, 9 battery and a RAF Regt Squadron did land at San Carlos.

On the kills. First report 13 given to Rapier. Some years later a RN team reviewed the claims and did some field visits and most kills were given to the Navy, somehow SLR's were given most kills near land. I know that Rapier got more than 2, but maybe not 13. You knew when that era of Rapier missle hit it, there was a distinctive explosion ( no proximty warhead, a hittle literaly ) otherwise it flew on.

Launcher location was another issue and beam depression plus a load more issues.

All in all, air defence was very poor and we lost many fine men down their, I hope that it is not forgotten how a important a layered air defence is! Been along time since we had serious air opposition, The Falklands was against a fairly light opposition.

Davoz

 

[MAINJAFAD]

1 confirmed (Rapier only) kill and two also claimed by other systems by the first Royal Artillery Rapier unit down south (T Battary, 12 Regt RA, if memory serves). Most of the engagements, I do believe were before 63 Sqn RAF Regt got off the boats.

Confirmed Rapier kill was the Dagger on 29 May 82 (serial No. C-436 of 6 Grupo de Caza (6th Fighter Group)), Lt Bernhardt killed.

Probable kills were a A-4C Skyhawk (serial No. C-318) destroyed on 25 May 85 over San Carlos Water by a variety of weapons, including maybe a Rapier . Lt Lucero ejected and was filmed being rescued by the BBC team on Fearless, the other was the May 23 engagement which saw the loss of A-4C Skyhawk C-242 (Lt Guadagnini killed) during the attack on HMS Antelope with was claimed by both a Sea Wolf from HMS Boardsword and a shore based Rapier (though all of the aircraft from that attack were damaged by SAM warheads or gunfire in some way, and two of the survivors claim that Rapiers and Ship launched Blowpipe SAMs just missed them)

Nobody knows what killed Skyhawk C-305 (Lt Bono) on 24th May 1982, but for the fact that all three aircraft in ‘Jaguar’ Flight from Grupo 4 de Caza suffered damage from SAM warhead detonations and gunfire ranging from 7.62 through to 40mm rounds as they attacked LSL's in San Carlos. Seeing that Rapier at that time was a Hittile, I don’t think Rapier killed that aircraft.

BAe were trying to sell Rapier to the US Army at the time after the US canned the 'Sgt York' self propelled anti aircraft gun system. Hence the MoD's very high claims to support the BAe bid. Rapier did make it to the US Army's SAM shot out in 1987 against the Swedish ATADS, where it failed to impress the Spams big time.

 

[MadFad]

I was at the time on Rapier myself and spent the next 10 years on them, the thing is I have met many ex 63 SQN and from what memory serves, there is no mention of any shooting down of aircraft from an RAF Rapier unit, and if a unit did shoot down an aircraft then the lad responsible would be a hero and his name bandied about, again no names (to my knowledge) has ever been bandied about.

Missiles were fired off. I do believe up to 20 maybe more but no hits, a couple of near hits, the firings were more for effect and lets see if we are lucky as: -

Radar was switched off due to the interference with RN radar.

Site of the unit was too high and as mentioned before the lads could not depress the launcher rails.

Spares where non existent, and even if you had any, getting the engineers to the unit was a nightmare.

And of course communication between all the services was pretty poor, left hand, right hand not knowing, type of thing.

Although an engineer during T&A’s fired off a missile almost hitting a para who was having a brew on the hillside, I do believe he wasn’t a happy bunny.