Welcome to E-Goat :: The Totally Unofficial Royal Air Force Rumour Network
Join our free community to unlock a range of benefits like:
  • Post and participate in discussions.
  • Send and receive private messages with other members.
  • Respond to polls and surveys.
  • Upload and share content.
  • Gain access to exclusive features and tools.
Join 7.5K others today

Reds crash inquest

  • Following weeks of work, the E-GOAT team are delighted to present to you a new look to the forums with plenty of new features. Take a look around and see what you think!
Trending This Week
View More Trending
(I searched for an existing thread, couldn't find one, feel free to merge, move as needed if it's been raised before)

Article refers to the tragic Reds crash during a training exercise at RAF Valley in Anglesey, North Wales, on March 20, 2018. Once again during the current inquest the system doesn't come up smelling of roses.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Red Arrows engineer died in fireball on Welsh runway

Corporal Jonathan Bayliss, 41, an engineer sitting in the rear seat of the jet, died in 'a ball of flames' in the crash during a training exercise at RAF Valley in Anglesey, North Wales, on March 20, 2018.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
 
Click to expand...
Apologies for hijacking without immediate reading and facts but my initial thoughts are: It's the system, always the system!!! Never seems to be anyone actually held responsible or accountable when it comes to risk and/or safety cases etc......
 
Rugby-Jock-Lad said:
Apologies for hijacking without immediate reading and facts but my initial thoughts are: It's the system, always the system!!! Never seems to be anyone actually held responsible or accountable when it comes to risk and/or safety cases etc......
Click to expand...
Agreed it would be nice if every once in a while a "responsible individual" was hauled over the coals for all to witness rather than relying on hiding behind the anonymity of the system.
 
Mates of mine were mates of Jon. He was the party animal on 16. Bloke that does my dirty work rated the bloke as a better person on the dance floor (was the flight commander BTW). I feel for David Stark. He had maximum ticks to fulfil in minimum time . He should not have been even authed to do any practice emergency drills with any circus in the back, They are never true Cat A. He did **** up. Jon was not on the ball alas. The documentary of his days is there out to see that wish to disagree. would he pull a handle to save his neck?
 
The hawk should have been modified (for the reds) to have a command eject system from the front. The MOD has messed this right up, and will no doubt in the future mess it up again, based upon the costs of change.

The word "eject" can be said in many formats, such as "I just need to eject the cockpit tape". A single word of "eject" would be questioned, 'what did they say' etc. That is why the phrase is "eject, eject, eject".

If i was a passenger again in the rear, and the pilot said "eject, eject, eject"... i would no doubt still be sat in the back of the aircraft as the pilot departs the aircraft. Probably at that point, i would consider my options (is this real, am i awake, is this a dream etc), and then eventually pulling the handle.

The actual realisation of that "this is real" may take 2-3 seconds, but when things are going wrong at low altitude, that time is precious. Pilot ejection, plus 2-3 seconds is probably too late; the decision for the Pilot to abandon the aircraft will be at the very last minute, and once l that happens, its probably close to the ground and hope has been lost.

John should not have died. The MOD has "fuxked" up here once again, shame on the MOD.

An Tornado F3 out of Leuchars had a passenger on board and they ejected, they survived as it was "Command Eject".
 
I would bet there wasnt any form of Risk Assessment on carrying a Blue in the back…just self-loading ballast.
RAFAT have a reputation for misplaced self-justification and not learning from even their own experience.
Media reports that a corrective Ejection Seat Mod will take years to embody…absolute tosh! A fleet of 10 could be done in weeks not years - IF - RAFAT wanted it to be done. Remember that these pretty little red planes had higher spares priority than most front line squadrons .
 
Rigga said:
I would bet there wasnt any form of Risk Assessment on carrying a Blue in the back…just self-loading ballast.
RAFAT have a reputation for misplaced self-justification and not learning from even their own experience.
Media reports that a corrective Ejection Seat Mod will take years to embody…absolute tosh! A fleet of 10 could be done in weeks not years - IF - RAFAT wanted it to be done. Remember that these pretty little red planes had higher spares priority than most front line squadrons .
Click to expand...
The biggest failure in military aviation is the "Military Aviation Authority" itself.

Lessons HAVE NOT BEEN LEARNED!
 
Talk Wrench said:
The biggest failure in military aviation is the "Military Aviation Authority" itself.

Lessons HAVE NOT BEEN LEARNED!
Click to expand...

I sense from a IPT/PT/DT side of things, a platform which "life" isnt certain, it just adds to the problem. If the "platform life" was say 10 years solid, then the IPT/PT/DT can prepare for mods to be delivered etc.

However, when its year by year, and that "mod" takes 1-2 years from contract to delivery, its kinda stalled.

I suspect the conversation goes as follows -

EA - "We must modify the red arrows aircraft"
Cap - "When is the expected delivery"
EA - "2025"
Cap - "will they still be in service then?"
EA - "unsure"
Cap - "spend the money elsewhere, review next year"

EA = Engineering Authority
Cap = Capability Manager
 
ERT said:
I sense from a IPT/PT/DT side of things, a platform which "life" isnt certain, it just adds to the problem. If the "platform life" was say 10 years solid, then the IPT/PT/DT can prepare for mods to be delivered etc.

However, when its year by year, and that "mod" takes 1-2 years from contract to delivery, its kinda stalled.

I suspect the conversation goes as follows -

EA - "We must modify the red arrows aircraft"
Cap - "When is the expected delivery"
EA - "2025"
Cap - "will they still be in service then?"
EA - "unsure"
Cap - "spend the money elsewhere, review next year"

EA = Engineering Authority
Cap = Capability Manager
Click to expand...
Nail, head, hit
 
The Safety Case for the aircraft should have had it mentioned on the lack of a Commanded Ejection function, the risk / severity posed and why the Duty Holder felt that the risk couldn't be reduced any further, no?
 
ERT said:
I sense from a IPT/PT/DT side of things, a platform which "life" isnt certain, it just adds to the problem. If the "platform life" was say 10 years solid, then the IPT/PT/DT can prepare for mods to be delivered etc.

However, when its year by year, and that "mod" takes 1-2 years from contract to delivery, its kinda stalled.

I suspect the conversation goes as follows -

EA - "We must modify the red arrows aircraft"
Cap - "When is the expected delivery"
EA - "2025"
Cap - "will they still be in service then?"
EA - "unsure"
Cap - "spend the money elsewhere, review next year"

EA = Engineering Authority
Cap = Capability Manager
Click to expand...
That is that same discussion as the 40+ year old Nimrod and Herc arguments so many years ago - and nothing ever got done for them either!
The Hawk is 40+ years old and RAFAT have no current plans for replacement - even to the "soon to be scrapped" Mk2.
RAFAT have secured a spares back-up to cover 'unexpected' airframe replacements for the next dozen years or so...and they still don't want to upgrade one safety system??? Crazy logic.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top