Return of service

[4everAD]

One for the adminers: I know pensionable service starts on the first day of service no matter your age but when does recognised service begin? i.e. 22 years from the day you joind up or from when you reach 18? Cheers.

 

[Billy Whizz]

For AFPS 75, pensionable service starts from 18, In terms of Engagement, it starts from aged 18 also ie I joined at 16 but my LOS+30 ends the day before my 48th birthday - recognised service (according to JPA) is from the day I joined.

For AFPS 05, pensionable service starts from the day you joined.

 

[Gord]

Not when I joined up sunshine January 1960, back then if you joined up at the age of 15+ as a Halton Apprentice, which most of us did, your time in didn't count until you reached 18 and you signed on for 12 yrs after that when you were first accepted as an apprentice and NONE of it was pensionable.

The reason given by the Air Ministry was that they were spending approximately 3000 quid to train you. Now I'll admit that 3000 quid was a lot of money back then but looking at it today, it was a giant rip off. Most of my mates served the 12 yrs and were then told "Your services are no longer required."

A few of them managed to make it through the ranks by that time and received commissions and were therefore kept on and ended up getting decent pensions but the majority were given the bums rush.

Me, I served 2 1/2yrs after my 3yr apprenticeship, realised I was getting severely fecked and found a way to get out without resorting to wearing frilly knickers or chintz dresses. I think it went something like "I'm having recurring dreams about killing certain members of the officer class at St Athan and I have begun to have those same feelings while I'm awake. I'm afraid that one day I may not be able to control myself." Or words to that effect.

Anyway they sent me off to Wroughton I believe it was, for an evaluation where I was offered a posting to anywhere the RAF had a base but by that time I was completely turned off and said "No, I want out," and so it was.

Best move I ever made. I miss the lads I worked with and the craic but then again I have sites like this and one or two others that I'm a member of so it's like getting the good parts of service life without the bullsh!t, and I'm still in touch with a number of my mates from my Halton days.

 

[4everAD]

For AFPS 75, pensionable service starts from 18, In terms of Engagement, it starts from aged 18 also ie I joined at 16 but my LOS+30 ends the day before my 48th birthday - recognised service (according to JPA) is from the day I joined.For AFPS 05, pensionable service starts from the day you joined.

Billy, cheers that corresponds with my understanding, what about recognised service for AFPS 05 and AFPS 15 is that from the day you join up as well? Anyone who knows me will know I've been banging on about under 18s not qualifying for an EDP. Under AFPS 05 and 15 if you join under 18 and serve 22 years you DON'T get an EDP and pension as you don't meet the 18/40 criteria. You get a preserved pension paid at state pension age, the only money you get straight away is your resettlement grant (£10,000 ish) and that's it. Nice money saving exercise don't you think? Fag packet calculation is approx £330,000 per person saved (27 years pension at £10,000 a year plus 2 x lump sums of £30,000 each) not taking into account CPI uplift.I've written to the FAFPS team and been told "yep that's right" and "the armed forces are exempt from any age discrimination acts". Apparently "I'm the only person that has raised this as an issue". Part of me says let this go, however a bigger part of me is appalled at the attitude i'm hearing.

 

[busby1971]

You appear to have found one of the hidden time bombs that were sneaked in on the quiet, previously all time that counts started at 18, with AFPS 05 that all changed as things are all counted from the day you join. IIRC this was sold as a benefit as people no longer lost pension entitlement if they joined under 18, those currently in at the time would not lose out as their engagements would be linked to their 18th so there would be no groaning or complaints at the time as it only impacts on new starters.

Another time bomb that people will soon grumble about is the state pension age which will probably rise and rise as we all live longer and longer.

By the way the Armed Forces are not exempt from any discrimination laws by default, although they do have some justified exemptions which are regularly tested in court, I think the 18 years service and over 40 could be considered discriminatory although 18 on its own would probably not be.


Sent from my Nexus 4

 

[4everAD]

Busby, it was said by the FAFPS that in the Army extensions would be given to enable service personnel to reach 18/40 but I find this hard to believe. In the RAF that could be up to 18 months or more i.e. joined at 16 1/2. That gives the individual at least an extra assessment over personnel forced to go at 22 year point, god forbid thay get picked up off that last assessment as that would then be unfair on those who go at 22. It's a mine field of their own making though. Why bring in 18/40 requirement what purpose does it serve? Surely just serving x amount of time would have done the job.

 

[Gonterseed]

There is a heap of information <here> you can even write them a letter and get an estimate of benefits...

 

[Billy Whizz]

But with terms of service meaning engagements don't start till 18 then 22 would still put you at aged 40, and you would in effect have to serve 23.5 years.

I remember when I joined, the aged 18 thing was a legal issue, being that you couldn't actually be legal responsible until 18 and not able to sign official documents etc till that age. All the new pension scheme meant was the extra time served under 18 was recognised, which it wasn't under AFPS 75.

Under the new NEM scheme brief I went to, they still quote 12/22 years and LOS 30 etc etc but I was led to beileve that started at 18 and all engagements in the RAf are still from aged 18 - even the LOS ones.

 

[4everAD]

But with terms of service meaning engagements don't start till 18 then 22 would still put you at aged 40, and you would in effect have to serve 23.5 years.I remember when I joined, the aged 18 thing was a legal issue, being that you couldn't actually be legal responsible until 18 and not able to sign official documents etc till that age. All the new pension scheme meant was the extra time served under 18 was recognised, which it wasn't under AFPS 75. Under the new NEM scheme brief I went to, they still quote 12/22 years and LOS 30 etc etc but I was led to beileve that started at 18 and all engagements in the RAf are still from aged 18 - even the LOS ones.

Billy that was my initial question, do engagements start at 18 even though pension recognition is from day of joining? If so where does it state that? Also why does the pension calculator not reflect that? It backs up my claim that under 18s miss out if they serve 22 years, I created a imaginary person who joins at 17 serves 22 years and they just get the resettlement grant no EDP or pension (until state pension age).

 

[Billy Whizz]

I don't get that issue with the calculator as still on AFPS 75 - terms of service shouldn't be affected whether its 75 or 05.

You should know you'r exit date though? It's on JPA under Service details. That'll put your mind to rest as to exactly when your Service terminates. As I said, my LOS +30 is from aged 18.

 

[4everAD]

I don't get that issue with the calculator as still on AFPS 75 - terms of service shouldn't be affected whether its 75 or 05.

You should know you'r exit date though? It's on JPA under Service details. That'll put your mind to rest as to exactly when your Service terminates. As I said, my LOS +30 is from aged 18.

This isn't my issue I passed my 22 ages ago. However this is an issue for our younger subordinates who joined under 18 though most of them, neigh all of them, don't realise it yet. The calculator shows that service doesn't start at 18 if you join under 18 it starts from the day you join.

 

[Billy Whizz]

But on the calculator you have to put in your exit date?

Surely the problem is with people not knowing their exit date and just adding 22 to the date they joined - which may not be the actual date? If it's the younger lads, then it may be a hyperthetical question and hence the reason for the original post - all makes sense now.

 

[Billy Whizz]

Just had a look at the AP and it says - terms of service starts from date of enlistment - no specific mention of being under 18, so the calculator could indeed be correct.

 

[4everAD]

Just had a look at the AP and it says - terms of service starts from date of enlistment - no specific mention of being under 18, so the calculator could indeed be correct.

Billy thanks for looking, this is indeed a shocking state of affairs and I don't think I can in all good conscience ignore it. The trouble is nobody seems to care! What would people recommend is the right way to go about raising this through the CoC or could someone on here with some clout in the admin world raise it through those channels?

 

[Billy Whizz]

I think the heirarchy already know - do remember somthing being mentioned at the NEM brief I went to earlier in the week that some people do miss out under the new pension arrangements but as the pension and NEM are linked, maybe going via the NEM route could raise the issue - fill in the on-line survey or raise a question via an email link on the NEM webpage.

 

[4everAD]

Billy, this is an issue with AFPS 05 let alone the new scheme. I have raised it with the fafps team and basically got told to get back in my box. I raised it at the nem brief I went to and the Colonel briefing wasn't aware there was a problem. Basically nobody believes something so stupid could possibly have slipped under the radar (either by design on behalf of the bean counters or accidentally).

 

[stereolab]

But on the calculator you have to put in your exit date?

Surely the problem is with people not knowing their exit date and just adding 22 to the date they joined - which may not be the actual date? If it's the younger lads, then it may be a hyperthetical question and hence the reason for the original post - all makes sense now.

Surely the calculator should have option boxes for an applicant to put in either variables or constants. The key data being DOB which would then trigger options when entering date of enlistment etc.

 

[Mug?]

cut off

cut off

It had to have a cut off date. It tried to bring all ranks under the same rules.
It has been known about since we had the initial 05 briefs.
It would have meant paying an EDP from age 35 in theory if only 18 years had to be completed.
I was told that a 22 yr engagement would start from age 18 meaning 22 years would be completed at age 40.Only those with periods of missing service may find they miss edp.

 

[Flybynight]

Not when I joined up sunshine January 1960, back then if you joined up at the age of 15+ as a Halton Apprentice, which most of us did, your time in didn't count until you reached 18 and you signed on for 12 yrs after that when you were first accepted as an apprentice and NONE of it was pensionable.

The reason given by the Air Ministry was that they were spending approximately 3000 quid to train you. Now I'll admit that 3000 quid was a lot of money back then but looking at it today, it was a giant rip off. Most of my mates served the 12 yrs and were then told "Your services are no longer required."

A few of them managed to make it through the ranks by that time and received commissions and were therefore kept on and ended up getting decent pensions but the majority were given the bums rush.

Me, I served 2 1/2yrs after my 3yr apprenticeship, realised I was getting severely fecked and found a way to get out without resorting to wearing frilly knickers or chintz dresses. I think it went something like "I'm having recurring dreams about killing certain members of the officer class at St Athan and I have begun to have those same feelings while I'm awake. I'm afraid that one day I may not be able to control myself." Or words to that effect.

Anyway they sent me off to Wroughton I believe it was, for an evaluation where I was offered a posting to anywhere the RAF had a base but by that time I was completely turned off and said "No, I want out," and so it was.

Best move I ever made. I miss the lads I worked with and the craic but then again I have sites like this and one or two others that I'm a member of so it's like getting the good parts of service life without the bullsh!t, and I'm still in touch with a number of my mates from my Halton days.

Another little scam in those days if you recall, Gord, was that airmen received marriage allowance at 21 but officers didn't get it until 25. Having realised that if I wanted a married life and a decent career it would have to be elsewhere, "I looked about me for opportunities" [Charles Dickens].