Royal Navy Won the Battle of Britain - Take 2?

[Reformed Scribbly]

More revisionist "history" to enjoy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...770&in_page_id=1770&expand=true#StartComments

As several of the responses point out, none of Dr Cummings so called facts are ground breaking. He is merely putting a different, albeit unnecessary and unfair spin on them.

Of course radar was primitive, it was only just operational.

Of course the RAF Pilots were half trained, the RAF had sustained many losses and was still building up.

Of course gunnery was an issue, but as aerial radar directed missiles hadn't been invented, not every pilot was guaranteed to be the next Red Baron.

Not much of a suprise that Polish/Czech pilots were amongst the top scorers, their countries were overrun, families, friends missing or worse so they had motivation, as well as several years of pre war training as they had come from their countries air forces, not just off the street!

The RN's fleet may have been one of the deciding factors to call the invasion off, however, ships without air cover were easy pickings, as seen at Namsos, Dunkirk, Crete, Taranto, Pearl Harbour and Singapore. As the RN would probably have to agree.

Dr Cummings = ******

 

[roverboy]

Maybe it's just another small tactic being employed in the big plan to get rid of the Royal Air Force?

 

[wolfy]

I know there has often been some debate over the accuracy of figures for aircraft shot down for both Germany and the allies. The argument as to the effectiveness of guns has some elements of truth in the early days of the war. However the RAF worn the Battle of Britain if for no other reason than their stubborn defiance in the face of overwhelming odds made the Germans change there minds.

This guy is just trying to make a name for himself by putting a different spin on things.

 

[BuckyOHare]

P'ah! What, exactly, was the point of publishing that article? What did the mail hope to achieve?

 

[box-of-frogs]

Daily mail - enough said! What a bunch of to55ers! ******'s

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

Of course the more controversial view is that ze Germans lost the B of B because Hitler didn't listen to Goering when he wanted to continue the bombing of RAF airfields. Hitler wanted to bomb the living daylights out of London instead and allowed the RAF time to regroup and recover.

Not trying to take away anything from what The Few achieved but even Dowding admitted that the RAF was 48 hours from defeat when Hitler changed the plans.

Guess we had better just be thankful that the man who invented "Mission Command" couldn't bear for it to be carried out!

 

[gemarriott]

I heard the Luftwaffe lost so many because they didn't know how to land and so they crashed. They weren't shot down at all.

Well that's what I heardDT_Xtremez_27:

 

[pueblos]

RAF pilots unable to shoot straight… Thank fcuk for that.
Any idiot know you have to aim off when firing at a moving target, even more so when you are moving, you aim at where the target will be not where it is. Aim straight and you will miss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fighter command was unable to stop hugely destructive bombing raids at night. That’s because it was dark you t0sser, and regardless what you boffins say, carrots don’t help…

Quote ‘’ The Spitfire and Hurricane fighters were "adequate" for their task, but their machine guns were "poor tools" for shooting down German bombers, he says. ‘’
That’s why they were re-tooled with cannon… It’s called learning. Which is something you need to do, tw@t

 

[Rocket_Ronster]

Seems a bit of an hysterical reaction from a lot on here.

The radar was primitive.
The brownings were crap.
Some of the pilots were thrown in with just 10hrs training.

And as to some of the tactics-they were plainly wrong.



BUT-thank God (& Dowding) for those boys.




I`d just like to leave with this quote-

Not much of a suprise that Polish/Czech pilots were amongst the top scorers, their countries were overrun, families, friends missing or worse so they had motivation, as well as several years of pre war training as they had come from their countries air forces, not just off the street!

More holes in this statement than a Swiss cheese.

 

[MAINJAFAD]

This guy is a C0ck of the first order.

Were the Germans fearful of the Royal Navy, You bet your sweat ass they were. However the Germans knew that with air superiority they would most likely be able to handle the threat. Put the RAF into the mix, they thought the chances of a successful invasion were about zero. Dunkirk would have been a much bigger bloodbath for the Royal Navy had it not been for Fighter Command aircraft operating almost non stop just inland of the evacuation beaches (where they took heavy losses, but also gave the Germans a bit of a bloody nose).

The RDF system was primitive and only gave early warning and information on aircraft location over the sea, but it did the job it was designed to do, as did the ROC spotters in allowing the controllers of the RAF to place their aircraft within visual range of enemy formations over 80% of the time.

Gunnery training in the Fighter Command pre war was a joke, however it is a well known fact that most pilots in most air forces that have fought in a war, never shoot down anything and that it is usually the best ones that get the big scores.

Sergeant J Frantisek the top scoring RAF pilot in the battle was a Czech pilot who had flown in both the Czech Air Force and with a ‘Polish’ French Sqn (that became 303 Sqn). The Polish treated him as a ‘guest’ of the Squadron in that he took off with them and then did anything what he wanted to by himself (which was to kill Germans anyway he could). He lacked any discipline in air fighting in either the British pre war methods or the German ones we copied. It was how he got his large score of victories, and was also one of the reasons he was killed within a month of him starting his part in the battle.

The .303 Browning was not as good as the 20mm Cannon, and this was known at the time. Aircraft designs which allowed the weapon to be fitted as designed were in testing at the time (Beaufighter, Whirlwind and Typhoon / Tornado). The weapon had also been fitted to a number of Spitfires in mid 1940. One big problem with it however, the only way it could be fitted to the Spit caused it to jam. The weapon had to be redesigned before it could be used on a Spitfire effectively.

The truth of the mater is…..

The Royal Navy didn’t win the Battle of Britain as the Germans never had the bottle to invade.

The Royal Air Force didn’t win the Battle of Britain, but didn’t lose it either (which counts as a win, something in the history of air warfare that has not been done before or since, in that the defender survived intact in an all out Defensive / Offensive counter air battle).

The Germans lost the Battle of Britain in that they failed in their mission to win daylight air superiority over southern England.

 

[Mad Pierre]

The Battle of Britain, like the rest of WW2 was a combined effort by all the Forces and a hell of a lot of civilians, my grandfather was a GPO engineer and spent some of his cushy reserved occupation reconnecting the bombed airfields and RDF stations to the primitive comm's network, a task not without its risks.
Simple fact is though, it was the RAF that bore the brunt of the battle and provided the teeth to fight back. Ask a German mind, and he'll tell you there was no battle, it was merely a part of the continuing air ops against Britain from 1939 - 45.

This chap's a n0b and the mail is a reactionary piece of toilet paper.

 

[Reformed Scribbly]

Seems a bit of an hysterical reaction from a lot on here.

The radar was primitive.
The brownings were crap.
Some of the pilots were thrown in with just 10hrs training.

And as to some of the tactics-they were plainly wrong.



BUT-thank God (& Dowding) for those boys.




I`d just like to leave with this quote-




More holes in this statement than a Swiss cheese.

Thanks for that, you both successfully re-iterated what several others had said and then failed to back up your statement with any evidence, good post.

 

[MAINJAFAD]

The Battle of Britain, like the rest of WW2 was a combined effort by all the Forces and a hell of a lot of civilians, my grandfather was a GPO engineer and spent some of his cushy reserved occupation reconnecting the bombed airfields and RDF stations to the primitive comm's network, a task not without its risks.
Simple fact is though, it was the RAF that bore the brunt of the battle and provided the teeth to fight back. Ask a German mind, and he'll tell you there was no battle, it was merely a part of the continuing air ops against Britain from 1939 - 45.

This chap's a n0b and the mail is a reactionary piece of toilet paper.

A very valid post in all respects, though the comms system was primitive, it was fully integrated and it worked. As for the Royal Navy's input to the battle, just remember what the opening phase was, The German's called it ‘the Channel war’ and it was the attacks on daylight coal shipping convoys though the Dover straight. These had to be defended by Fighter Command at great cost in experienced aircrew and aircraft because the Royal Navy didn’t want to concede that they had lost control of the Channel (which they had in the case of air attack). The resulting losses of aircraft resulted in the attacks on Fighter Command that followed then causing more problems than it should have done. The real shame being that all of that coal could and should have been moved by rail.

 

[Rocket_Ronster]

Not much of a suprise that Polish/Czech pilots were amongst the top scorers, their countries were overrun, families, friends missing or worse so they had motivation, as well as several years of pre war training as they had come from their countries air forces, not just off the street!

OK Numpty, lets look at this excellent bit of logic shall we.

Are you seriously saying that the British RAF pilots weren`t "motivated" during the Battle of Britain ?
As to to the training-discount the RAF Aux and the RAFVR, the British RAF would have been professional pilots- not just off the street, so why the disparity in scores?
And how come Pierre doesn`t get a mention yet the Poles and Czechs do?



As has been stated, the Battle of Britain wasn`t so much won,as not lost.

(I`ve just re-read the article and i still can`t find where the author states the BoB was won by the Navy-just your assumption thats what he says,which makes you thewanker

 

[MAINJAFAD]

OK Numpty, lets look at this excellent bit of logic shall we.

Are you seriously saying that the British RAF pilots weren`t "motivated" during the Battle of Britain ?
As to to the training-discount the RAF Aux and the RAFVR, the British RAF would have been professional pilots- not just off the street, so why the disparity in scores?
And how come Pierre doesn`t get a mention yet the Poles and Czechs do?



As has been stated, the Battle of Britain wasn`t so much won,as not lost.

(I`ve just re-read the article and i still can`t find where the author states the BoB was won by the Navy-just your assumption thats what he says,which makes you thewanker

Nope the guy who wrote the article has previously made the case that the Germans didn't invade because of the Royal Navy, which is partly true. A war game was held in 1974 using the plans drawn up by both sides at the time. The result would have seen the German invasion forces beaten in about four days due to the fact that they could not be re-supplied thanks to the channel supply lines being cut by the Royal Navy, however this game included the fact that Fighter Command had not been defeated.

Polish and Czech squadrons didn’t enter the battle until early September, before this all of the fighting was done by RAF, AuxAF and Fleet Air Arm units. Also before Sept, the British units were fighting escorted bombers where the escort were allowed to use their aircraft to full effect, unlike the later raids where Goring had his fighters flying in formation with the bombers, which put the Me 109’s at a bit of a disadvantage.

 

[Reformed Scribbly]

Right then Bottle Rocket Ronster

Are you seriously saying that the British RAF pilots weren`t "motivated" during the Battle of Britain ?

Where did I say that? Don't think I did.

As to to the training-discount the RAF Aux and the RAFVR, the British RAF would have been professional pilots- not just off the street, so why the disparity in scores?

It's widely held/verified by accepted historians, Corelli Barnet, Dr Bungay, John Terraine to name but a few, (that's called backing your arguments up with evidence) that the RAF Pilots were still unprepared/ unfamiliar with contemporary air warfare tactics as developed by the Luftwaffe at the start of the battle. Whilst they had been active since the winter of 1939 in France, the invasion in May 1940 of France and the Low Countries was the first real taste for the RAF in any strength. The RAF had been present in Norway however overwhelmed by sheer weight of numbers in addition to superior tactics/equipment.

As to the scores, you tell me.

And how come Pierre doesn`t get a mention yet the Poles and Czechs do?

By that do you mean the French? Because the Poles/Czechs outnumbered them 17 to one perhaps?

At no point was I intentionally doing down any other nations efforts. Hence I stated "amongst the top scorers".

As has been stated, the Battle of Britain wasn`t so much won,as not lost.

I actually agree with you there and with most other posts, so why you thought the opposite I cannot fathom.

(I`ve just re-read the article and i still can`t find where the author states the BoB was won by the Navy-just your assumption thats what he says,which makes you thewanker

See the above post by MAINJAFAD.

Next random inaccurate attack?

 

[Douglas Bader's Right Leg]

Nope the guy who wrote the article has previously made the case that the Germans didn't invade because of the Royal Navy, which is partly true. A war game was held in 1974 using the plans drawn up by both sides at the time. The result would have seen the German invasion forces beaten in about four days due to the fact that they could not be re-supplied thanks to the channel supply lines being cut by the Royal Navy, however this game included the fact that Fighter Command had not been defeated.

IIRC said wargame showed that Ze Germans wouldn't have made it past the Thames or West of Dorset. They certainly wouldn't have made it further than the London suburbs before the RN put the squeeze on their MSR.

Most importantly, if the Luftwaffe had achieved air superiority they would have been able to bomb our ships and dockyards at leisure. Indeed if we assume no Yank interference/Russian front lunacy they could have spent years doing just that before bothering to invade.

The defence of Britian was a combined effort between the Navy, RAF, Army, Civil Service and Security Service and should not be viewed as a p1ssing contest. the BoB was just a particularly remarkable period during which we proved the worth of a well organised, responsive counter air system.

 

[Rocket_Ronster]

Many apologies Reformed Scribbly.

The confusion is all mine and arises due to posting on other forums. You see, on other forums the thread starter (you in this case) gets to name the title.

"Royal Navy Won the BoB part2"


Thats the title of the thread that you started. Followed by a link to an article by a gentleman who says no such thing. That is just what you read into it.
So the thing is- is the thread title randomly generated, has somebody gained access to your computer and passwords, is your cat a genius on the keyboard?


Coke Can Reformed Scribbly.

 

[Tabman]

Nope the guy who wrote the article has previously made the case that the Germans didn't invade because of the Royal Navy, which is partly true. A war game was held in 1974 using the plans drawn up by both sides at the time. The result would have seen the German invasion forces beaten in about four days due to the fact that they could not be re-supplied thanks to the channel supply lines being cut by the Royal Navy, however this game included the fact that Fighter Command had not been defeated.

Polish and Czech squadrons didn’t enter the battle until early September, before this all of the fighting was done by RAF, AuxAF and Fleet Air Arm units. Also before Sept, the British units were fighting escorted bombers where the escort were allowed to use their aircraft to full effect, unlike the later raids where Goring had his fighters flying in formation with the bombers, which put the Me 109’s at a bit of a disadvantage.

Ah, good old Moggy Cattermole ... "Piece of Cake" is an excellent book!

You might also be interested to know that Derek Robinson (a former RAF FIghter Plotter) has written on this very subject: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Invasion-19...d_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195942591&sr=8-2

His conclusion: that even had the RAF been wiped out during the BoB, and the Germans had had Air Superiority, such was the strength of the RN at the time that the Germans would not have been able to get over the channel.

IIRC it was all to do with the fact that there were no proper invasion craft. German troops would have had to be towed across the Channel in flat bottomed barges, at the stately speed of around 4 knots. It would have taken them 14 hours or so to cross, meaning that part of the journey would have been in daylight. A few Destroyers cutting thorugh the invasion fleet would have swamped most of the barges on their way over.

 

[Mad Pierre]

Another point to consider would be the lack of specialised armour available to the squareheads at the time. Dieppe proved to the Allies that it was impossible to get off the beach without the right equipment. The average PzkwIII would have been digging itself deep into the Eastbourne shingle long enough for Capt. Mainwaring to drop a molotov down its hatch.

Nope, the whole Sea Lion thing was a non starter, that's why the most dangerous weapon they had at the time was Lord Halifax, fortunately what he lacked in patriotism and British stubbornness he also lacked in spine and handed the PM job to Winston on a plate.