The Flight Operations Branch

[SirSaltyHelmet]

I was just saying, I find it incredible that both you and Oasis say aircrew in the AT world can't do flight plans. Sweeping statement

 

[Hmmmm]

Firstly, let me declare my hand. I'm a serving ATC Officer who has had the pleasure of working with TG9 throught the last 20 years. In my time I have worked in the routine ATC environment as well as various ops roles both in the UK and OOA.

Throughout, I have always felt that the quality of TG9 individual is second to none. This was most aptly demonstrated on an operational deployment where even the youngest and least experienced SAC could turn his hand to manning Air Ops, working on the Tower or applying him/herself to the plethora of other duties that invariably arise when OOA. When a Gp Capt Rock Ape specifically praises TG9 personnel for their critical contribution and the manner in which they have demonstrated their professionalism, you get a very warm feeling.

Turning to the Flt Ops Specialisation (it is NOT a branch) I, like many, looked forward to some positive thinking and enthusaistic OpsOs. When I first joint the Service the DOC was invariably a knackered old Master Pilot who was still claiming flying pay even though the last aircraft he had flown now resided in the WW2 section of the RAF museum. Whilst these guys were capable, there was never any inclination from them to move things forward. Admittedly, they had their own, unique, way of managing the opsies, but everything worked fine (remember, this was also the time when AATCs who had "failed" the aptitude tests/JATCC took at least another 10-15 year to make it to sgt rank).

We then went through the torturous process of implementing Flt Ops, including the development of a trg cse (?) at Shawbury. Inevitably, a large number of re-treads went through the system and here there was significant risk of the specialisation getting itself a bad name. At the same time, I personally saw some very keen and intelligent youngsters join in the hope of making a difference - we, the Service, sold them short. We now have a specialisation that, in some areas, has tried to run before it can walk whilst it has little credibility across the RAF. Moreover, the obvious initial direction to go in was to embrace TG9; ATC actually recognised and accepted this, it was the inability of Flt Ops to accept the responsibility which left TG9 under the ATC umbrella. Indeed, in a previous incarnation at Shawbury, I saw OC CATCS make a significant demonstartion of confidence in transferring FOTF (previously known as TTF) from the ATC Trg Sqn across to FOTS; this made imminent sense. Amazingly, the FOTS side of the house did not want to embrace TG9 trg and felt significantly put-out by having to accept the additional challenges. I was aghast that they squandered this chance to forge a way. Instead, they chose to hide in their crewroom and moan about the lack of high level sponsorship and support.

Personally, I think it is now too late for the specialisation. They did not recognise a golden opportunity from which they could quickly obtain a wealth of experience and credibility. Don't get me wrong, there are some quality Flt Ops officers out there, the only problem is that the ship is rudderless and there is a large amount of rotting wood. In the meantime, we have a TG that is becoming unsustainable as we now have more cpl posts than SACs. What is that all about?

 

[Hey_you_in_the_bushes]

As a "new" entry into TG9, i feel that i should really summarise what i am hearing on this forum, and just make sure that i have it right. It just seems a little disconcerting for the new entry SAC into the world of TG9.

1. Ops Officers should only be trusted to do one of two things; never simultaneous, and certainly never unsupervised.
a. Make tea - JNCO supervision or above
b. Hold the remote control. This can be done unsupervised. However, any usage of the remote must be done with the supervision and the permission of a SNCO at least.
I find it somewhat disturbing that the only person who disagrees with this is OpsOfficer.
2. What little promotion that is available is slowing down; moreover, it is being filled by SAC's, who, in days gone by, would have been overlooked due to their huge lack of ability.
3. Any commissional aspirations are being disregarded in favour of other trades, and furthermore, once the SLOPS position is thought of as a "given", promotional aspirations are diluted massively.
4. All the Flight Ops branch generally is just a specification, with its' head up its' own a%*&, and it needs to get a reality check.
5. No-one but the highly experienced should be left to do anything at all remotely risky, as any high level cover is not really forthcoming, and anyway, someone else should be doing it.


Boy am i glad i joined the Royal Air Force. Perhaps if these comments were brought up to someone in a position to do something about it - this Group Captain must have an email address; or, someone has a good chat with a new OC Ops, keen to make his mark, or everyone just tries to actually work together, we might even start to enjoy work.

Anyhow, My two penny worth is over. I'm off to PVR and join the army. They don't have the capacity to know any better, so i'll probably fit right in, lol

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

Not a bad summary young fella me lad!

Assuming you are a fella of couse, but if not then you are a fine chum "Bob"

 

[Hey_you_in_the_bushes]

you were right first time

i try my best. However, i believe that i missed quite an important point out.

Wouldn't a viable improvement be that instead of having young officers in the DOC position, and well experienced WO/FS/Sgt etc being FOM, we just swapped the two around. The experienced NCO can utilise the well-gained experience and run the ops room how it should be run, and the young officer can practise his/her man-management and overall competancy skills before moving on. Then the FOO (Flight Operations Officer) can liase with the NCDOC (Non-Commissioned Duty Ops Controller) on how to run the section, and how to provide the high level cover and back up for new ideas.

Or has this already been tried out when those wheels went triangular on the last change, lol

 

[Hey_you_in_the_bushes]

sc please note?? what's that mean?

And since then, i've had a haircut, thank you.



just for the record, i don't really think that a robust person would be interested, but our chocolate machine is now u/s - some idiot shook it in the hope to get a few extra bars. Any ideas!!!???!!!???

 

[Hey_you_in_the_bushes]

well, according to rumour that is rife in the rooms...........

all the chocolate machines are being taken away, plus the coke machine, in an attempt to get us all fit again. However, unfortunately for us, they are being placed in the tactical medical wing hq, for the 97 downgraded people to enjoy.

anyhow, seriously, has anyone given my point about swapping the role of the FOM and the DOC around in order to improve the running of the ops room?

 

[oasis]

The picture really doesnt do you justice... at least instead of moaning you have come up with some ideas at least...im proud of you..

Oh and by the way watch this space some of them may be coming to an ops room near you sooner than you think...

Oh and I do believe FOMZ wouldnt walk as far as the terminal!! in desperation he would probably ask someone else to go for him...

He's not fat but healthy and robust!!!x

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

You two in love or something?

 

[Hey_you_in_the_bushes]

it's a very cute cat - i've called it seefur

i don't moan that much by the way - i whinge intolerably, but i never moan, lol

 

[oasis]

im afraid that sirsaltyhelmet is a grumpy old man.. and incapable of being nice to anyone...

not changed over the years then have you!

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

Far from it little miss, still a cheerful chappy!

 

[Hey_you_in_the_bushes]

strangers IN the night, but nice try, lol.

I've been known to walk about seven steps for chocolate. that's as far as i go otherwise i drive, lol.

 

[Arseendcharlie]

SSH et al.

Thanks for the banter fella, and I apologies for coming across as bitter and twisted not my intention I promise you, best I get out there and have a word with myself! However as you well know I am well aware of the correlation between knowledge and application, not something many of my erstwhile colleagues were capable of I have to sadly admit. Also sorry to contradict you but there is a huge similarity between dispatcher and ops in civ aviation, that's why the quals are linked. Have a look at the AVTEC 2000 C&G course for a basic example. Please don't confuse what I have been referring to with ramp tramps or redcaps, they're one step up from baggage handlers and aircraft marshallers.

Fenalla,

Not sure what you mean about probably being useless at bring on FOA's. FYI I had a pretty good training record, and although I had a couple of difficult ones who were really beyond help, overall I know that the example I set was the right one or at least that's what my ACR's said.

Getting back on track, a lot of good words said and in particular from Hmmm, exactly what I've been trying to say for yonks through the red mist that has been clouding my judgement for so long. For my part I really did feel that, rightly or wrongly, the ATC branch was selling FOA/FOM short in career development and training and the frustration became too much for me, and as some of you well know I got close to truly hating my job and no longer believed in it or it's credibility, which is why I left. No matter what people may say I do not believe that your initial 6 week course at Shawbs sufficient for SNCO, clearly you may have picked up a certain amount of knowledge along the way through osmosis but you must agree that at SNCO level you need to be formally tested. Many trades have to pass a rigorous FT before promotion why not FOM, you could even ally the qual to a civvy one thus formalising your experience.

The FOO specialisation has missed a trick, and by turning it's back on absorbing the troops has indicated it's own fragility and also a complete disregard for the knowledge and experience contained therein that has thus far propped it up.

For those of you that may be interested, I civvy aviation is broadly very similar but the level of responsibility and knowledge expected is far higher than anything I personally experienced in the RAF but it is thus far very satisfying. Nevertheless I stand by what I previously said about your skill set in the service and that expected out here. It's a very competetive world full of very capable people that will run rings round most RAF Ops types

Be good Ya'll and hello to those few who have sussed me.

 

[Hey_you_in_the_bushes]

I refer you to my signature m'lud

my deepest apologies mon dieu. A lack of observation, somewhat common in us younger FOA entries. lol

 

[FormerFlake]

Whenever I hear or see comments like the ones posted I can’t help but think they refer to individuals, rather than entire specialisation. It does not matter what job you do, there are always bad people. The main problem with Flt Ops is the complete lack of direction from above, with no focus there is no where to go.

There have been several times when I have met a new Cpl or SNCO and one of the first things they have let me know is how experienced they are. What is the point of saying it? If they are good it will easily show they don’t have to tell me. Not all experience is good, in fact you could argue that a lot of the old school, no matter how competent, are holding the operations world back. The job is getting more and more complicated and modernisation is needed, sadly some of the older members would far rather be writing backwards on perspex boards than use a computer.

It is quite sad that TG9 personnel are so happy to refer to the ‘re-treds’ within the branch as if to say they are second rate. All I can see is at least they have tried to gain a commission in the first place, there are plenty of ex-rankers amongst them. It didn’t work out in their chosen (or chosen for them branch), why shouldn’t they get another chance? I can’t help but see these comments as being from anyone other than bitter people.

The comments on operations staff working OOA are valid, but not unique to officers. At least the officers can often claim they a first tourists in the first out of area, what about the Cpl and Sgts who have been all but useless in posts? This is not helped by having newly promoted pilots in charge who have maybe never been out of area either. There are huge issues about the ‘modern’ RAF goes to war, but that is a different topic.

I can proudly say I have worked with some first class people, of all ranks in the operations world. They were good because of who they were, not because what they wore on their shoulders.

For the people who have commented on life on the dark side, there are plenty of RAF ops people who could walk straight into civil ops jobs. I will shortly be joining a market leading company that already employs a former Flt Ops Officer (not even a ‘pure’ one like myself) and 2 former TG9s.

Finally, stop fighting each other and work as a team or you could be all out of jobs, the movers want your posts. Plus you can guarantee not many aircrew will get the boot in the cuts, a flt ops post has already been taken by a Nav and one base.

 

[FormerFlake]

Where is the proof that TG9 personnel were prevented from gaining commissioning and taking the early FOTS posts? Is this rumour control or fact?

From my experience a lot fo the problems came from no-it-all ATC officers transfering across, most of home were not very good controllers in the first place. Most of which never did any form of training. The early FOTS short course was not very good either and spent most of the time teaching people stuff they already new, like what a runway was and how to use a BINA.

Give me a TG9 cpl over an ATC officer any day of the week.

I dont have a problem with the aircrew who came across, after all they are the ops customer, a fact often forgotten.

 

[Martel]

My two pennies worth

My two pennies worth

Well, at least it has calmed down over the last few pages....and some of the pointless mud slinging has gone.

(Do I pause and duck for cover now as more is launched?)

First off...I am one of the dreaded O's. Now, at least I have bravery as a trait and am not going to hide. Secondly....I am not going to get drawn into slagging off others, because I for one do not have the time....well, actually I do, but I really do have other things more interesting....and rewarding.

I have argued (albeit in a perfectly politically-correct way) that there is a big gap in what goes on in the Ops room.....and let's not broad brush this, there are many Ops rooms, all of which have a differing remit, some more so than others. (Example, the one here is more a 'nexus of information' type of Ops room where the 'team' has to pass info around, make sure that visitors are booked in ok, take care of all the Stn Crisis plans and generally try to oil the wheels of the many cogs on the unit. Oh, and be manned 24hrs just in case some idiot wants to fly in to a major city and make the six o'clock news.) There is more than enough work to go around, but there was definitely a case for the sneck to run the floor and the O to be a cr@p filter for all the large amount of mindless paperwork that most of the people on here whose comments do not stretch to a paragraph see very much of.

(Please remember it is also these dreaded Os that have to exercise the heroic feats of creative fantasy writing, usually only seen in books involving the name 'Potter', when writing the 6000s that get you promoted...and I for one am usually a Santa Claus when it comes to the scores. Oh, this applies unless your promotion was linked to quota based scheme of recent years, when they kept on promoting, even though they got so far down the list the 6000s that they usually opened with 'DO NOT PROMOTE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE!', in which case you are quite right, you do not need us to write you up... -End of Whinge-)

So, I agree, in a long winded fashion, that the experience (SNCO or old hand JNCO) should be used where it is needed, and the management stuff (not the work connected with running the shift) is left to the Officer. But, I was shouted down....in a really quiet way. Let us just say that you are not alone in thinking that there needs to be a re-ordering (in some places) of who-does-what....as far as I can see, alot of us are working at a level below what we should be at...Os are doing the FOMs work, the FOMs are doing the Cpls jobs and the Cpls/SACs are busying themselves looking for better careers outside the RAF. Most of this might be due to a change in the ethos where no one wants to stick their head above the parapet or allow anyone else to undermine them by making decisions themselves.

Another point for you to chew on: The former Branch Sponsor came in, during the early formation (read:critical time of sculpting/organising/directing) of the Branch and spent his entire tenure stating that the career path of an Ops O should be Generalise, Generalise, Generalise! (In other words, spend your first three tours bouncing between rotary, FJ and multiengine environments.) Surprise, Surprise...upon leaving his post, he admitted that this wasn't working, as it meant that 4th tourist Os were no more skilled in any one of the environments than a first tourist. This is what we had to fight against.

Yet another point/Agreement: Whilst I cannot speak of the current training regime at FOTS, I can say that when canvassed about it afterwards (some time afterwards) I had nothing much to say about it in the positive. The entire FOTS school was geared up at the time to turn someone with zero knowledge of an airfield/Stn into someone who could basically run a flight planning room, with a few extra bits like dip clearances, casevacs, parking/landing fees and the odd customs inject. It did exactly what it set out to do...except that what it produced was not everything that was required of an Ops O. (And anyone coming out of TTF should know that alot of stuff wasn't taught (certainly not in any depth) until after you arrived on your first post....so don't poke fingers at OJT, we have all had to go through it....and yes, my OJT still continues, no one stops learning....or they shouldn't do.)

To wrap this long first post up....some points -

Training: I think that the training provided needs to be augmented by job specific courses (e.g. MAOTs don't just walk into the job on day one and start setting up remote landing sites....so why shouldn't everyone get a proper intro to their knew job.)

Competency: There are no professional competency 'ticks', aside from the original course at FOTS. Don't bleat at us about our competency, the powers that be (above Wg Cdr level) stopped grooming the branch way to early and left us without these benchmarks, without a well defined ladder and without prospects beyond Flt Lt. We are aware of this and are as iritated as you by the lack of standardisation across the Branch.

Man Management: Stop broad brushing everything...you will close your minds to what is good as well as what is bad. There are so many different Ops environments (Stn, Sqn, HQ etc) that there will be a whole host of different skills/traits for Os, SNCOs and Juniors....just as there will have been a whole range of good/bad experiences. (Just as you are thinking about the micro-managing Officer who is constantly on your case....why is he doing it? Might it be because he has had a bad run of incompetent staff working for him in the previous post that he has just defaulted to this way of working out of (bad) habit?) -As for 'my guys', they are left to run their own desk, under the Duty Auth...albeit with other inputs from me which cannot come from a pilot, those to do with Flight Ops matters which the aircrew darlings are best kept well clear of. Now, I trust my two Cpls to get on with what is required and to manage the SAC....I only need to add new stuff to the pile and to provide the odd reminder when they have been snowed under with aircrew triv that the smaller Ops tasks still are there to be done. If anyone has a problem with someone reminding them that they should be working, pointing out something has been missed, or heaven forbid, actually giving them a new task (!GASP!).....well, I think they need to realise that money=work done....and everyone has a boss. (I think there is an anecdote about having to be sitting very high up to be able to be seen doing nothing....something about poultry and a tree. Then again, there is also the story about the monkeys in the tree....all those looking down see smiling faces, whilst those looking up only see a**eholes....)

Well.....that is about enough of that for one day....

Sling the mud if you want, but this forum should really build it's cred by talking like the adults it has...

Have a good shift!

 

[Opz]

Well said Martel! Now all we need to do is e-mail this entire thread to the Branch Sponser and see if he pays any attention! I think we've all had enough of being someone elses hobby/secondary duty.

 

[FormerFlake]

Agree on the huge variety in Ops rooms.

Kinloss is a good example where a Sgt runs the ops room, the OpsO is out the back doing mission planning etc. Seems to work very well and sets a good example of how an ops room can be managed using Flt Ops and TG9.

Brize Ops has only one Flt Ops position (not including SOpsO) , 2 DOCs are TG9s WOs and 2 are ROs, currently ex multi engine Navs. Very different set up, very busy ops room but another example of how it varies. I cant go into my views on how this works as it would reflect on the current individuals, but it is not a perfect system.

The sheer variety of the branch is a double edged sword. You can find your self in any number of completely different jobs, but you never get chance to specialise. I'm all for specialisation, but i just dont see it happening, sadly.