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The 'new' JATCC graduate....

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Again I do read the posts I'm writing about and do about 6 or 7 times to ensure I know what I'm replyng about but in the interest of this forum and as The FOMz has said, it may have looked liked a personal attack but it was a general feeling that has been talked about in various places, not on E-Goat if you're wondering.

Again I say, I know how the Trade is organised and who runs it, I'm a fairly Big Boy you know and get the picture.

THE END

Maybe it's not worth it anymore, what is the point of trying to discuss something with someone/people who obviously really don't care about anything other than their own little empire and not the big picture.

I may be back I don't know but until certain people get off their high horses................................................................. :mad:

Controller - The friendlist he's been, doesn't surprise me in the least, it reminds me of a Grumpy AVO I know (Ex Sqn Ldr)
 
Inside etc:
but it was a general feeling that has been talked about in various places, not on E-Goat if you're wondering.
- you can't leave it there! Please come back and explain what you meant...
Maybe it's not worth it anymore, what is the point of trying to discuss something with someone/people who obviously really don't care about anything other than their own little empire and not the big picture.
- surely that could be construed as another personal attack? A comment that is hardly fair and quite obviously way off of the beam if you read my posts - I care passionately about OUR trade and the way it has evolved over the years.

Controller: NOT ETC HER ROLL
 
Well well, you go away for a few days and come back to a great bunfight between YCCMA and insideinfoman. Even that Fat Controller bloke has chipped in some entertaining ramblings and anagrams. You can tell the Medical Centre has been closed as he hasn't been able to collect his medication!:p

What was the original question posted by said Fat Controller? Oh yeah 'Are CATCS / ARTS Instructors doing their jobs properly or not? Are you (at the Terminal / Area Units) getting the right 'product'? If not why not....and what needs changing?'

A couple of comments from myself on the original thread.

Is the Fat Controller blaming CATCS Instructors for the product? If so, this is an interesting concept that maybe he would like to explain the rationale behind the 'doing their jobs properly' comment? He is obviously oblivious to the work that Instructors actually do and suggest he gets his tail over to the School to see for himself!

Most of the debate appears to be aimed at Fast Trackers who, aptitude wise, are no different to the ex Cpls as they come thru' JATCC. Indeed, I have had to ask individuals if they are fast trackers it's that difficult to tell them apart from ex Cpls. I guess I must be getting old as they all look young to me!

One thing they do lack is maturity and sometimes I have felt that they don't really make the effort both as SNCOs and baby controllers. Because the JATCC and rank of Sgt has been handed to them 'on a plate' (and they haven't had to spend 8 years in a Tower 'earning their place') some have an atitude which does concern me. Although only a minority have had such attitude problems I can assure you we do our best to rectify on the School.

My solution would be to put them all through a 3 week 'this is how to be a SNCO' course prior to JATCC and call it IMLC.

Any duff plastic Sgts would be chopped by Halton for LMF and automatically sent to IOT.:D

Have a good New Year !

Chaka (Retarded)
 
Inside out -
I may be back I don't know
please come back - don't do anything silly - please! ;)

Retard -
and suggest he gets his tail over to the School to see for himself
- but would 'he' understand it? I've been there and it beats the hell out of me! IMLC prior to JATCC is the sensible option, but we would need a virtually infallible assessment system that would, as far as is possible, guarantee success and thus a return on investment.

Controller - NOT LETCH ERROL
 
I’ve noticed that there have been a number of adverse comments in various threads about the current ‘fast track’ (FT) system and some support for a replacement Direct Entry (DE) system. As I was one of the individuals at the old HQ MATO who initially proposed the change to TG9, and then did a considerable amount of the staff work to actually implement the change, I feel it appropriate to throw my hat in the ring and comment on why I believe the FT system is preferable to a DE system.

Firstly, why was the change necessary? Well I don’t think anyone could honestly say that the old TG9 structure served either the individual or the service particularly well. The main problem was the length of time it took individuals to be selected for promotion to Sgt and then attend CATCS to attempt to pass the JATCC. I sat on three Cpl – Sgt promotion boards and conversion selection boards in the mid 1990’s and there was a wealth of talent at Cpl from which the board had to select the most suitable candidates. However, the problem was that the age of most of those selected was generally late twenties to early thirties and, as anyone who has served as a CATCS Instructor will tell you, the older you are when you start the JATCC, the greater the chance that you will fail and this simple fact has been born out by the results over many years. It simply boils down to something that applies in many areas of life – old dog, new tricks. So what we needed to do was to get the average age of the SNCO attending the JATCC down to about the same age as the JO. In addition, at the time we were suffering a slow, but steady erosion of controller numbers, quite simply more people were leaving the specialisation every year than the JATCC could possibly replace, even taking the general drawdown into account – to put it bluntly, what we needed was more ‘bums on seats’. So we had to act, doing nothing was not an option, so let us consider the options that were available:

1. Increase the JATCC throughput using current TG9 personnel. This option was considered, but rejected for the following reasons. The JATCC simulators have always been geared for a maximum course size of 16, so any increase over 16 would mean additional simulators and staff - I was serving at CATCS in the mid 1980’s when we were forced to go up 20 per course and it was a nightmare. Space is already limited at Shawbury and also identifying sufficient funding in the short term for this option would have been very difficult. Furthermore, this option does not address the root cause of the problem – the average age of those selected for the JATCC. For these reasons this option was rejected.

2. DE SNCOs was an obvious option and initially this had some attractions. We could have only recruited individuals with an aptitude pass, put them through the Airmen Aircrew Course (AAC), then onto the JATCC. Certainly those who made it to Shawbury would be on average considerably younger than those on the ‘old’ TG9 system, but would the AAC have prepared them all that well? Perhaps some people out there believe that the current graduates from the AAC are well prepared to be effective SNCOs? I think there is plenty of evidence to the contrary and judging by some of the comments that I frequently hear, I think the AAC is a means to an end, rather than an ideal solution. Airmen aircrew, by the very nature of their duties, spend the majority of the time immersed in their primary duties within a squadron where they can be ‘guided’ in their development as a SNCO by more experienced colleagues. How much would DE ATC SNCOs actually know about the RAF in general and ATC in particular? I agreed with my boss and many others that a DE SNCO scheme would be likely to create as many problems as it would solve and it was rejected.

3. The only other option was a FT scheme. This would achieve our main aim of reducing the age of those who made it to the JATCC. Furthermore, rather than just streaming those selected at AFCOs through the AAC, the FT scheme would allow the ‘RAF’ at large, and TG9 personnel in particular, to actually have a close look at those selected for up to 5 years. Some checks and balances could be put in place to ensure that any real ‘no-hopers’ or thoroughly undesirable individuals who had somehow managed to get their foot in the door, could then be identified during this period and not given the appropriate recommendations. I would always contend that FT individuals will learn more about the RAF in general and ATC in particular during their period of training than anyone attending the AAC. This is the reason we recommended the FT scheme in preference to the DE scheme.

However, I wouldn’t wish to give the impression that this decision was not debated widely by TG9 personnel. We held a seminar at HQ MATO which was attended by a wide range of WOs and SNCO from right across TG9. The various options were debated at length and the unanimous decision was in favour of a FT system. This decision was again debated at length by various senior individuals at HQ MATO and HQ PTC before eventually being recommended. Exactly what has changed since this decision was made – nothing other than some people have started moaning about the ‘quality’ of some FT individuals?

Those who support a DE system in preference to the current FT system seem to imagine that a change to a DE system will be a panacea to current difficulties in TG9, but what will any change actually solve? The people that are joining the FT system now, are exactly the same people who would join a DE system. So the individuals wouldn’t actually change, just the training they would undergo before attending the JATCC. If anyone actually thinks that there is a pool of individuals out there just waiting to join the RAF under a DE SNCO ATC scheme, who won’t join under the current FT scheme, they need to give themselves a reality check.

Sadly, any change to a new TG9 structure will always result in some individuals feeling that they have been disadvantaged – that is a fact of life, but shouldn’t be an obstacle to change for the better. But I would also state that, as the new FT scheme has ‘ramped in’ and the old system has ‘ramped out’, many of those individuals serving under the old TG9 structure have been given a shot at the JATCC. By now, anyone who hasn’t been given a shot at the JATCC would never have had a chance under the old system, they simply would not have been sufficiently competitive. The new scheme isn’t ideal and I believe all FT individuals need to be formally mentored during the early years of their service in preparation for the JATCC and beyond - this is being now being addressed. In addition, a short bespoke ‘SNCO training’ course prior to the JATCC would be useful, but is unlikely to ever be funded – we don’t live in an ideal world and never will.

I have current experience of FT individuals and in my opinion in terms of overall ability and aptitude, they differ little from the younger SNCOs we used to see at CATCS. Indeed in 2005 the average age of the FT student was only one year older than the DE JO and the success rate was the same for both groups. In comparison, the average age of the 'old TG9 SNCO' student was three years higher than the FT student and their failure rate was more than double, it was nearly quadruple. Some FT students are very good, the majority are average and you wonder if a few have ever sat an aptitude test, but that is true of any group of students who attempt the JATCC.

In summary, the FT system has barely started and before we can make a reasoned and accurate assessment on whether it has been a success or failure, it must allow it to run for at least 10 years or more. I believe strongly that the current proposals to change from a FT to a DE system are both ill considered and premature. We have suffered continual change in the RAF since the end of the Cold War and unfortunately many changes have been made before a previous change has even been given a reasonable period of time to bed-in. I sincerely hope we don’t make this mistake with TG9 and instead allow those currently recruited under the FT system a sufficient period of time to prove its worth.

Cerberus - hat back on to cover bald head and ready for incoming.
 
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Questions questions

Questions questions

First forgive me if this has already been said but it's a long thread and at my time of life I shouldn't be starting any long novels.

Q1. Has anyone had a FT go full term and not be picked up on JATCC?

Q2. What happened to them? Remusterd or kicked out?

Q3. Do FT get written up on their last ARCT to give them a shot at JATCC and does 'time to do' influence the CSB?

Q4. What about civi FT? No, on second thoughts better not start that one!
 
Incontrovertible information from Cerberus. As The FOMZ observed, SNCO 'training' is a no-brainer; it SHOULD be completed prior to phase 2 training. That being the case, I'll make the point again, candidates for such training should only be selected if they have shown the prerequisites (as with any promotion). It is a fact that a (very small, admittedly) number of people have attended JATCC when they patently obviously had absolutely no SNCO qualities. That said, as has already been mentioned, the majority of SNCOs leaving the school are of the same personal standards as they have always been - just much earlier in their personal development. That increases the responsibility of KOS's like a lot of us to bring them on. Interestingly, a similar trend has been apparent in the JOs leaving the JATCC. Am I right in thinking that a more rigorous recruiting regime would alleviate a good deal of these problems?

Right, a whole post without slagging (slaggling?) anybody - I must be getting soft!

Controller - RETCH TONE, ROLL (!)
 
YCCMA-
rigorous recruiting regime

We used to have said system but since this Leftie, Pinko, Commy, New Labour, Sir Tonyness, PC, middle class bashing Government came into being the Royal Air Force has HAD TO conform to the soft way of recruiting. :rolleyes:

Bless.:o



Rant over, have a great New Year!:)



PS. Of course I didn't mean any of the above, so if the boys from P&SS,MI5, or MI6 are reading this, I love you too you commy barstewards!
 
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I thoroughly enjoyed reading your post Cerberus, it is refreshing to have an honest and frank comment from one involved in decision making. The discusion of FT versus DE SNCOs will always be a contentious and thought provoking one. Personally I am against DE SNCOs for TG9, I have nothing against AAC in fact I have met some very good SNCO aircrew. This method of recruitment works well in their world but, imo, does not suit TG9. The FT system, which I was against from the start, has not had a chance to prove itself. I can understand some people feeling aggrieved by having their SACs outdoing them in the promotion stakes. However, there will always be individuals that feel "overlooked". I do feel that the introduction of the FT system as prevented good Cpls from becoming controllers. In many cases this has been the individuals choice, but I think it is fair to say that the FT system has soured the milk for some people.

What, we the trade are left with is an untested system. As a CATCS instructor I have seen the FT students in close comparison to their non-FT comrades. Overall it is fair to say that the FT compare favourably. Of course this is a generalisation but this is not the forum to discuss individuals. In almost 3 years I have rarely seen students arrive without the correct motivation. Those that lacked the skills have failed, after all that is what JATCC is about. Sorry to be blunt but JATCC is about having the required skills not being a nice person.

As I said I was against the FT system, initially because I knew very little about it but also because I had friends that might get overlooked. Since I arrived at CATCS and learnt more about the system I have seen its' benefits. The FT students are younger, pass rates between JOs and SNCOs are equalising and the trade is getting well motivated and trained SNCO controllers. Yes it is true that they lack experience, which is never ideal for SNCOs. The delay between JATCC and IMLC is too long and must be addressed. All SNCOs graduates would benefit from extended management training, be it TMT2 or another bespoke course. Until such a time it is down to us, the experienced SNCOs within the TG to teach, mentor and guide the graduates. We will gain nothing by battling one another or by punishing the FT SNCOs. The system may be at fault but the inividuals.

I feel that we must allow the system to progress, lets see what those FT graduates are capable of before we condemn them. The challenge of being a SNCO is one I relish, this current situation simply adds to the challenge.

All of the above is of course my personal opinion, it is not meant to be a criticism of any group or individual within the TG. If you take offence at my words then I apologise and ask that you look for my true intent. That is to make the TG better for all within it.

Happy New Year
 
Hmmmm
Well blow me over, a couple of posts in and we get the FOM side of the house slagging-off the fast track system

Come on now....surley we on thew FOM side of the house are entitled to an opinion???? or are our views not relevant because we didn't pass/ didn't get the chance/ didn't want to (Delete as applicable) do the JATCC????

By the way ....'Happy New Year' to all:D :D :D
 
My point is that there are numerous comments on the ops forum about the 'Ivory Tower' meddling in issues they don't understand.

As a FOM, can you make an objective assessment of a new controller's controlling ability?
 
Often at CATCS we see students arriving that obviously lack the aptitude required for JATCC. This must be the fault of the assessment for aptitude that the RAF currently uses. The controller aptitude assessment report is, as I understand, completed by the individuals' 1st RO. Normally this would be a second tourist FOFL controller. In reality, with the lack of experienced personnel at units, I would not be surprised if it was a first tourist officer not long out of the school themself.

To suggest that the FOM in a tower has the time or professional skills required to make this assessment is not an indication that all FOMs are idiots. It is recognition that they are too busy as it is and that the job must be completed by a specialist. The FOM in a tower or ops is undoubtedly the specialist in their area but not in controlling. I am not suggesting that controllers are better than FOMs, simply that they are of a different specialisation. Having said that anyone who has attended JATCC, pass or fail, has valuable advice and experience to pass onto the new generation.

Here is a radical idea, how about CATCS do the assessment of personnel. Surely specialists in JATCC would have a better idea of what skills are required to pass the course!

So in answer to The FOMz:

because you are not a specialist in controlling!
Would I as a controller be best suited to make an assessment of someone for a non-controlling post? I bloody hope not!
 
I'm bored now......haven't we flogged the FT system to death?

How about going back to the original question posted by the Fat Controller and maybe get some answers from live controllers out there(not Instructors or FOMS or old gits like YCCMA).

So far we have only had one reply from a 'real live controller' and he/her/shim said the CATCS product (Zob and SNEC) were fine.

Note- Obviously the term 'real live controllers' does not apply to AVOs or WOs over the age of 40, sorry. :p
 
I'm all in favour of accelerated promotion for the right people. The biggest problem when the system was introduced was that it largely discounted those who were already in. It would have been much better if the existing selection procedure had been adjusted rather than leave it to the lottery of the recruiting people with their quotas and targets. The last SNCO Controller that came off the school to us had been in quite a while and should know how the system works. A year on, despite a great deal of fatherly advice from some of the senior people he still manages to rub everyone up the wrong way but what the hell, every tower needs a $hit magnet.

Am I right in thinking that those fast trackers graduating now will be offered service until 48 as a matter of course? Could this create a system that potentially has someone in the same rank for 25+ years? Oh hang on, we have already got a system that will have Corporals in the same rank for 18 years. Is there going to be another promotion pyramid that is bulged in the middle?
 
Ok, so I've been reading the posts.

HP - You really need to go and read post #17, which is mine from ages ago, I've been saying that for at least 4yrs but it always falls on deaf ears.

And I do disagree with you and the fact that a FOM is unable to make an assessment of controlling abilities. Yes I have done JATCC and PASSED!!! (again you will need to and find the post with the details in it) But I can and have over the years being in my post made a pretty good assessment of people on TMT and whether they would indeed pass the course, how acurate? Not sure but prob over 60% and the fact of recoursees? Well thats a different matter, I know many that should never in a month of Sundays have been given a second chance.

But hey! What does a FOM's opionion account for anyway, I agree with FOMz whole heartedly.

I'm going back into my box!!:cool:

PS Happy New Year :D
 
Ooooh yes you can...

Ooooh yes you can...

HilstonPols said:
the job must be completed by a specialist. The FOM in a tower or ops is undoubtedly the specialist in their area but not in controlling. I am not suggesting that controllers are better than FOMs, simply that they are of a different specialisation.

So in answer to The FOMz:

because you are not a specialist in controlling!
Would I as a controller be best suited to make an assessment of someone for a non-controlling post? I bloody hope not!

I've done an ARCT as a FOM before and why not, I've worked along side controllers for 20 some years, worked area radar on more than one occassion, sims etc etc. It rubs off.

You can tell who makes a good centre forward without playing the game!

Thousands do it every Saturday afternoon.

No sour grapes, just opinion.
 
Insideinfoman, don't take it personally m8.:D I did say that all SNCOs not just controllers have a great deal to offer those selected for JATCC. However, I was trying to point out that it should be, as you suggested, CATCS that do the assessment. As with all good ideas, yours will continue to fall on deaf ears until a Senior Officer can see the potential to enhance their profile or promotion possibilities.

When I worked at LATCC I saw many excellent radar assistants that subsequently failed JATCC. Now as a member of the CATCS instructional staff I can say that there must be some kind of assessment course completed at CATCS. Currently we rely upon a system that is flawed. CATCS assessment would not make it full proof but would perhaps help to eliminate those students that don't have the required skills. I did not say that this CATCS assessement had to be carried out solely by controllers, lets use the vast experience within the wing.

But hey! What does a FOM's opionion account for anyway, I agree with FOMz whole heartedly.

My post was not intended to start the "we're better than you" arguement.
 
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