When did the RAF ensure that all pilots were officer rank?

[koppas]

I just told someone that pilots have always been officer rank and been made to look like a tw@ as, it seems, I am wrong.

 

[Talk Wrench]

You very much are. In WW2, many pilots and crew were rankers and not commissioned.

TW

 

[MAINJAFAD]

SNCO pilots were in the RFC from the start, as they were considered to be just drivers, Observers were in command of the aircraft and were on the whole officers, Officer pilots usually flew single seater scouts like the Bristol Scout or Martinsyde S1, which, with the advent of air to air combat, became fighters and a lot of officer observers then became pilots, so they could kill things. SNCO Pilot and Navigator died out in the late 1950's (though some continued flying into mid 1960's until the end of thier service). Short story, some bright spark decided that SNCO's couldn't be trusted to drop buckets of instant sunshine on the commies when ordered to (Nuclear strike mission being the RAF's primary role at the time).

 

[Ghandi's Flip-Flop]

I could be wrong but I believe it occurred in the post war years when our pilots started carrying 'little buckets of sunshine'.

 

[sands-gigolo]

SNCO pilots were in the RFC from the start, as they were considered to be just drivers, Observers were in command of the aircraft and were on the whole officers, Officer pilots usually flew single seater scouts like the Bristol Scout or Martinsyde S1, which, with the advent of air to air combat, became fighters and a lot of officer observers then became pilots, so they could kill things. SNCO Pilot and Navigator died out in the late 1950's (though some continued flying into mid 1960's until the end of thier service). Short story, some bright spark decided that SNCO's couldn't be trusted to drop buckets of instant sunshine on the commies when ordered to (Nuclear strike mission being the RAF's primary role at the time).

Mainjaf, your much too quick for me (for once!) remember the weapons museum at newton? wasn't there a little plaque under the large 'bomb' explaining why the RAF decided to make all pilots officers?

 

[Talk Wrench]

Short story, some bright spark decided that SNCO's couldn't be trusted to drop buckets of instant sunshine on the commies when ordered to (Nuclear strike mission being the RAF's primary role at the time).

I could be wrong but I believe it occurred in the post war years when our pilots started carrying 'little buckets of sunshine'.

Was this something to do with the absolution of power between the individual and the state?

A commissioned officer is acting upon the order of the state and is in a position of command,where as a non commissioned officer acts upon disseminated orders from the aforementioned and only holds a position of authority.

So, the execution of nuclear weapons was a state responsibility and would be carried out by an officer who was in command, not by someone who only had authority.

I think. DT_Xtremez_35:


TW

 

[MAINJAFAD]

Mainjaf, your much too quick for me (for once!) remember the weapons museum at newton? wasn't there a little plaque under the large 'bomb' explaining why the RAF decided to make all pilots officers?

It was much bigger missile museum when I first saw it in 1983 (Did a week at Newton on a Spacey Gliding course which got snowed out, hence got a look around MTF, long before I did the six months there (A lot of the stuff in the hanger with the lightning had already gone to Cosford in 1986)).

Just had a quick look on goggle and it turns out that a few SNCO chopper pilots managed to stay in the service well into the 1970's (Last one, a master pilot was still flying Wessex trainers at Shawbury in 1979).

 

[frankthebeef]

Just had a quick look on goggle and it turns out that a few SNCO chopper pilots managed to stay in the service well into the 1970's (Last one, a master pilot was still flying Wessex trainers at Shawbury in 1979).

At the risk of asking stupid questions, would anyone happen to know why the Army still have Rotary Pilots and the RAF don't? just curious to find out why.

 

[Talk Wrench]

At the risk of asking stupid questions, would anyone happen to know why the Army still have Rotary Pilots and the RAF don't? just curious to find out why.

The RAF have lots of rotary jockeys. The Army tend to specialise in attack roles, hence the aircraft that they use. The RAF are employed more in the support role.

And believe me, the disciplines are poles apart.


TW

 

[Dave-exfairy]

At the risk of asking stupid questions, would anyone happen to know why the Army still have Rotary Pilots and the RAF don't? just curious to find out why.

I think you mean why do the Army still have NCO pilots? As the RAF still have rotary pilots.

 

[MAINJAFAD]

The RAF have lots of rotary jockeys. The Army tend to specialise in attack roles, hence the aircraft that they use. The RAF are employed more in the support role.

And believe me, the disciplines are poles apart.


TW

I think you will find TW, that Frank means why do the Army Air Corps still have SNCO (and I do believe NCO, not that I've seen one) pilots flying rotary, and the RAF and Fleet Air Arm don't. In the case of the RAF, every pilot joins as a fast jet jockey, and will in most cases only end up as a transport or rotary jockey if they don't cut the mustard past the Tucano phase of pilot training (though no doubt a number were streamed into non fast jet streams through choice, or were stiffed to make up manning shortfalls). As for the RN pilots all being officers, same reason as the RAF, even the small Wasp heilcopter used in the 60's, 70's and 80's could carry a 600lb nuclear depth bomb and use it in anger (drop a low yield nuke in deep water from a chopper, which then flys away as fast as it can and by the time the bomb has sunk to detionation depth, the chopper is quite safe...which is more than can be said for the Sub that has been attacked which if within a couple of miles of the explosion is crushed like an empty beer can by the shockwave in the water).

As for the AAC aircraft (Lynx for example), the army operates them much like the RFC did in the early days of WWI, in most cases the SNCO pilot mainly flys the thing, the observer does the killing, as it's him that operates the weapon systems (and will in most cases be a commissioned or warrant officer), though its a bit different with the Apache (which I will not go into due to opsec reasons).

 

[The Naked Stacker]

rumour going round JHC a few years back was that the Air Farce was being forced to appoint some non-commisioned pilots for their wokka wokka's. Probably bollocks

 

[frankthebeef]

Being a biff!!

Being a biff!!

At the risk of asking stupid questions, would anyone happen to know why the Army still have Rotary Pilots and the RAF don't? just curious to find out why.

Sorry, it was late and i was half p!ssed when i typed that. I did mean how come the RAF don't have SNCO Rotary Wing Pilots and the Army do.

Booze and computers obviously don't mix!!

MAINJAFAD, thanks for explaining it, was only curious as to why.

 

[Douglas Bader's Right Leg]

More importantly why have we not reverted to SNCO pilots since we lost the nuclear deterrent? Nothing to do with us being the only bus company that's run by the drivers surely...

Bring back SNCO aircrew and get our fg branch officers to do some proper leadership rather than acting like overpaid students.

 

[Rigga]

Going back to an earlier post;

As an SAC Rigga up to my Fitters Course in late 1979, I knew Master Pilot Alec Riddoch through daily contact with him from 1975 -79 on the Whirlwind Lines at Tern Hill and Shawbury. I believe he was the second-to-last WO Pilot to leave the RAF. The last one being on 72 Sqn at the time.
He preferred being called "Mr" rather than "Warrant Officer" and officers called him that too (conversations started; "Mr Riddoch, Sir....")

Mr Riddoch smoked a Pipe and often flew Flight Tests in his No 2 Blues and Helmet. He had a "Smalley" Flt Lt UTP under his wing (can't remember his name though!) and the two seemed to get along like Father and Son (they weren't)
He really was a very nice 'chap' who brewed his own wine and liked a good 'party'.
I seem to recall he had three leaving do's, for his retirement, over one week - One 'Barrel' (or two) for Work, and Dined-Out in the SNCO and Officers Messes (at Shawbury)

 

[Stax]

One of the first guys I met on arrival at Scampton was a Battle Dressed Sgt Pilot with two rows of medals. He was an ex Fighter pilot at the end of WW2 and had been chopped from flying and made a Stacker! He also had a plastic voice box as he had had his own removed due to Cancer. His party trick was to smoke a ciggie through his throat and blow it out of his nose!

 

[jack brew]

One of the first guys I met on arrival at Scampton was a Battle Dressed Sgt Pilot with two rows of medals. He was an ex Fighter pilot at the end of WW2 and had been chopped from flying and made a Stacker! He also had a plastic voice box as he had had his own removed due to Cancer. His party trick was to smoke a ciggie through his throat and blow it out of his nose!

Sounds like quite a character! Wonder how counting blankets compared to flying

 

[MAINJAFAD]

When I was doing a look up of info for Funtime Steve a few weeks back, I found the answer to when the move to all Officer Pilot/Nav was made. The Air Council (what is now the Air Force Board), made the decision in November 1950. The primary reason was to do with pay and recruitment. The pay issue was that an lowest pilot/nav rank, Aircrew Class IV (Cpl) was with flying pay, earning more than a ground branch Flt Lt and the RAF were having problems recruiting ground branch officers.