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A question from an “Old Rigger”.

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Captain Slog

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After reading the post reference the Tornado crashing in Afghanistan, I have a question.

Why is it that whenever a Military aircraft crashes and the crew are saved by using their Ejection Seats, why do the Armourers immediately expect to receive a crate of beer form the crew for “heroically” saving their lives? Now before Gem and his fellow Armourers attack me with great gusto, please let me explain.

Surely, if the crew have had a successful escape, it is down to the Armourers having done the job they are trained to do (obviously very professionally) and that is to ensure the Aircraft Assisted Escape System (AAES) has operated as it was designed to do when called upon. Yes, I fully accept that the AAES is a last resort live-saver but that is what it is designed for. Would the Mechanical tradesmen be entitled to a crate when the Pilot returns from a successful Flight test when he has had to carry out an engine re-light at altitude? How about when the crew have had to land in almost zero visibility but were brought home safely by a fully operating navigation and landing system, should the Avionic people be sanctioned for their share of the spoils also?

What I am trying to say is, surely it is an all trade’s team effort to ensure that the crew will return safely but if something does go catastrophically wrong, there is a system fitted to the aircraft that will hopefully ensure their safe escape. No doubt I will have raised the wrath of the Armourers, this was not meant in any way to be a dig at them, merely an opportunity to ask a question about an age old tradition or have I illegally entered hallowed ground? I await your reply, preferably as a discussion and not bile and venom – or will that be too much to ask for.
 
They got paid to fit the seat correctly.

They should expect no other recognition.

As you said...

Does a rigger get a crate for the Flying controls working? No.

Does a Sooty get a crate for the Engine working? No.

Does a Fairy get a crate for the INAS working? No.

If it's proved the seat wasn't fitted correctly they should get locked up, just as we would if a jet piled in through our negligence.
:PDT_Xtremez_32:

But you have to give the, "special needs children", some sort of extra accolade don't you.
:PDT_Xtremez_14:

Edit to add: Put more politely... They have to work to a set standard, for which they are paid.

The set standard is the minimum standard so unless the bang seat found the nearest pub and landed the pilot at the door at opening time I don't see that any work above and beyond the call of duty has been carried out.
 
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I think that you will find that it is far too much to ask for. :PDT_Xtremez_14:
 
Yes, I fully accept that the AAES is a last resort live-saver.

I'm not an armorour in fact I'm a sooty to trade but i think in while we all have our part to play, when everything else fails the ejection seat is the very last thing that you want to work as it should, you cant test it!! but you have to have faith that it will do it's job i think thats enough argument for a bit of arrogance. :S (but just a small fcuking bit :PDT_Xtremez_32:)
 
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I'll try and answer this as sensibly as possible knowing the Captain asked the question that way. Having been involved in the fit of 11 seats that were used successfully and knowing the pain of losing a crew when they failed to bang out I have some experience of the emotions involved. Starting with the successful ejections, there is almost always a period between hearing the kite has gone in and the news the crew are safe, in that period of time diaries are checked, whoever fitted the seats gets a feeling deep in the pit of the stomach that doesn't go away until you hear the seat worked as advertised then there is an immense release of tension, When however the news is bad the feeling is awful, every connection, every bit of wirelocking, every cartridge is refitted in your mind a thousand time a day till you are convinced the crew died because you fcuked up. It is only when the board of enquiry declares "no attempt to eject" or no "chance to eject" that the poor sods who fitted the seat actually get a decent night's sleep again. I don't know if that justifies a crate from a grateful crew or not in most peoples minds buut it certainly does in mine.

Of course being god's children we always deserve the "special" thank yous we get and of course our beer and if you begrudge the armourer his beer it will still taste the same anyway:PDT_Xtremez_14:
 
I guess if I were to look at it from the Growbag's point of view.:PDT_Xtremez_42:

If I was starting certain death in the face and the last chance handle let me live. I might be inclined to "buy that man a beer!"

I did say might:PDT_Xtremez_30:
 
"When however the news is bad the feeling is awful, every connection, every bit of wirelocking, every cartridge is refitted in your mind a thousand time a day till you are convinced the crew died because you fcuked up."

... and whats so special about plumbers again?
 
<flippant reply>
For the same reason the bloody armourers expect a special thanks at the end of the det or exercise because they fitted some bombs (with the assistance of the load team made up from the people who fixed the aeroplane first)

They even expect an even bigger thanks when we are on ops. FFS they only do half the normal job of bomb on/bomb off then but they still want fawning at.
</flippant reply>

Gem, I completely understand your post, and trust me, if a jet goes in, everybody who has worked on it goes through the same feelings.
 
What about the squippers then...its all fine it hurtling you out of the stricken a/c with a rocket up your a$$, but without something to arrest your return to terra firma then surely its as much use as a chocolate fireguard?

Thats not a dig, do they get a beer too?
 
"When however the news is bad the feeling is awful, every connection, every bit of wirelocking, every cartridge is refitted in your mind a thousand time a day till you are convinced the crew died because you fcuked up."

... and whats so special about plumbers again?

I agree completely. Been there and it doesn't matter what trade you are it's a twiytchy time for ALL. And I'm not replying in a flippant manner in any way, shape or form. The aircraft I work on don't have the benefit of assisted escape equipment of any kind so what Rigga quoted above (from Gems post) is all the more pertinent.
You do your job properly and the master race survive if they need to get away from the aircraft, well done. The rest of the aircraft trades do thier job correctly and the aircraft gets in the air and (hopefully) back down in one piece, well done.

It reminds me of that film that we all got shown on recruitment... the 'pyramid-style' RAF one where everyone plays their part to get the jockey in the air; everyone hopes that the seat-technicians never have to prove that they've done the job properly but occasionally their skills are called upon; is it worth singling them out for praise? In essence, no - (How many of us slag off the ATC dude in the caravan on the end of the runway for spotting that red flag hanging off the pylon... which is why he's there to a certain degree?).

Please don't misunderstand my post; I have no intention of belittling armourers at all but at the end of the day you guys are just doing your job, just the same as the rest of us. :PDT_Xtremez_14:
 
I agree with most of what is written and whilst as most people point out the safety of any aircraft is everyone's responsibility the ultimate responsibility of the crew's safety lies with the bit that throws him out of the aeroplane. When and if everything else falls apart that bit has got to work, there is no back up or fail safe.

As for the squippers getting a beer for their bit of silk and paddle boat as far as I know they usually did. I know the bucc crew that banged out at Laarbruch were more than generous. A case of Squadron malt and a couple of crates of dorty came our way and the same to SES.
 
I am pretty sure that when Robin Nedwell (?) of "Doctor in the House" fame crashed his Harrier back in the 70's, he blamed it all no a multitude of factors, not least the steward ****ing him off by not bringing him his eggs the way he liked them - at least thats what the film depicted. Off Topic
 
Wrong Actor

Wrong Actor

I am pretty sure that when Robin Nedwell (?) of "Doctor in the House" fame crashed his Harrier back in the 70's, he blamed it all no a multitude of factors, not least the steward ****ing him off by not bringing him his eggs the way he liked them - at least thats what the film depicted. Off Topic

If it's the same film, then it was Richard O'Sullivan of Man about the House.

Close, but no cuban for you !!
 
After reading the post reference the Tornado crashing in Afghanistan, I have a question.

Why is it that whenever a Military aircraft crashes and the crew are saved by using their Ejection Seats, why do the Armourers immediately expect to receive a crate of beer form the crew for “heroically” saving their lives? Now before Gem and his fellow Armourers attack me with great gusto, please let me explain.

Surely, if the crew have had a successful escape, it is down to the Armourers having done the job they are trained to do (obviously very professionally) and that is to ensure the Aircraft Assisted Escape System (AAES) has operated as it was designed to do when called upon. Yes, I fully accept that the AAES is a last resort live-saver but that is what it is designed for. Would the Mechanical tradesmen be entitled to a crate when the Pilot returns from a successful Flight test when he has had to carry out an engine re-light at altitude? How about when the crew have had to land in almost zero visibility but were brought home safely by a fully operating navigation and landing system, should the Avionic people be sanctioned for their share of the spoils also?

What I am trying to say is, surely it is an all trade’s team effort to ensure that the crew will return safely but if something does go catastrophically wrong, there is a system fitted to the aircraft that will hopefully ensure their safe escape. No doubt I will have raised the wrath of the Armourers, this was not meant in any way to be a dig at them, merely an opportunity to ask a question about an age old tradition or have I illegally entered hallowed ground? I await your reply, preferably as a discussion and not bile and venom – or will that be too much to ask for.

Captain:
Its nothing more than Tradition, something the Royal Air Force Thrives on, and something us Plumbers utilise to the full extent when a seat is used. I trust this has answered your question. yours etc etc........:PDT_Xtremez_14:
 
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If it's the same film, then it was Richard O'Sullivan of Man about the House.

Close, but no cuban for you !!

And he couldn't eject as he'd forgotten to take the pins out. His engine relit just in time for him to get home safely and fill in a Murphy/Condor report. At least that's how I seem to remember it after all those years.
 
And he couldn't eject as he'd forgotten to take the pins out. His engine relit just in time for him to get home safely and fill in a Murphy/Condor report. At least that's how I seem to remember it after all those years.

Wasnt that one set in Belize and they used bottle lids for tool tags?
 
When and if everything else falls apart that bit has got to work, there is no back up or fail safe.

Yeah, its all about human nature at the end of the day. Very few people get into an aircraft expecting it to do anything other than get them to their destination safely so the part everyone else plays in making sure that happens is kind of taken for granted (for want of a better expression).
But when something does go wrong, I think anyone who has a normally aligned moral compass will feel a sense of gratitude towards those who played some part in saving their life.
It may have become a tradition, but its a pretty good one IMHO.
 
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