ATM Seminar at Cranwell tomorrow

[FOMz]

Once again, people just assume that TG9 is employed at Bastion.... WRONG!!!

TG9 FOMs and FOAs are active across the theater in a variety of roles, the fact that you have failed to see that DRR shows your ignorance.

I myself have worked in TG12 roles as an SAC and found it a walk in the park to be honest. In Belize back in '92 the FC actually preferred having a AATC (as we were then) working with them, rather than the ASOP - speaks volumes.

TG12 take over TG9 roles, I think not.

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

Once again, people just assume that TG9 is employed at Bastion.... WRONG!!!

TG9 FOMs and FOAs are active across the theater in a variety of roles, the fact that you have failed to see that DRR shows your ignorance.

I myself have worked in TG12 roles as an SAC and found it a walk in the park to be honest. In Belize back in '92 the FC actually preferred having a AATC (as we were then) working with them, rather than the ASOP - speaks volumes.

TG12 take over TG9 roles, I think not.

As are TG12 FOMz, I am heading out to work in a Tri-service FP role (Radar Specialist), several others are involved in some very interesting jobs out there that fall well within the ABM spectrum.

The Air Cdr summed it up the other day when he said that by ATCs own admission they had lost there warfighting ethos since the end of the cold war. While they had become enlightened post 9/11, and are experts in their field, they had not fully grasped the complexities of the modern conflict. Now the guys at BSN are doing an amazing job in testing conditions but as a branch were let down by heirarchy in the 90s who neglected to train them for a war. Unfortunately, most of the management of TG9 has been done by SO ATC types as there are not enough FOOs of high enough rank to make a difference. Not their (or your) fault, just a fact of life that we need to recover from.

I support greater cross-trade working but I am not sure about an amalgamation. We need to be less suspicious of each other's practices and work together to find the best solution for us all.

If you remember back to the days of SAKS...

"A trained man can..."

 

[R_Squared]

I think that something gets very conveniently forgotten whilst harping on about 'Warfighting' ethos.

Firstly, there is absolutely nothing wrong with what the boys and girls on the ground in the TG9 are doing OOA. If there are any problems it is that management have got their knickers in a twist because they feel that they are 'losing out' in perceived prestige to our FC cousins.

Secondly, and actually much more importantly, OOA Ops is only a tiny fraction of the ACTUAL work ATC performs. What we do OOA, is what we do at home, day in day out.

Simply put, we may be 'Warfighters' first, but we are 'ATC Warfighters' which means we provide the services that allow our Airmen to safely and expeditiously get their jobs done, whether that's OOA or in the UK.
Frankly, the core of the job is hardly different, apart from the volumes involved.

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

I think that something gets very conveniently forgotten whilst harping on about 'Warfighting' ethos.

Firstly, there is absolutely nothing wrong with what the boys and girls on the ground in the TG9 are doing OOA. If there are any problems it is that management have got their knickers in a twist because they feel that they are 'losing out' in perceived prestige to our FC cousins.

Secondly, and actually much more importantly, OOA Ops is only a tiny fraction of the ACTUAL work ATC performs. What we do OOA, is what we do at home, day in day out.

Simply put, we may be 'Warfighters' first, but we are 'ATC Warfighters' which means we provide the services that allow our Airmen to safely and expeditiously get their jobs done, whether that's OOA or in the UK.
Frankly, the core of the job is hardly different, apart from the volumes involved.

Wise words there and I wholeheartedly agree - however your cause has not been fought and great enough height and I fear that you may be the ones to lose out in the future. There is broadbrush similarities between the jobs and this commonality has been proven by training an exchange from both sides of the argument. Yes the core job is the same, application of services in a safe and effective manner, but the ATC side have become too bogged down in UK doctrine, again I hasten to add through no fault of their own.

The writing is on the wall I'm afraid, and I think the only way we all survive is to bring something to the party and attempt to get on with everyone. Some will lose out, some will be winners. I know what side I want to be on!

 

[FOMz]

ATC only has Bastion to worry about and thats all they do worry about. Once again the FOMs and FOAs who are in numerous locations and have been constantly are once again forgotton about. The ATC branch may not be seen as a 'warfighter role', but i can assure you that the FOMS and FOAs most certainly are. They have had much more direct impact of ops than the ATC branch ever will.

Want to sort out the mess,the ATC airships need to start taking notice of the FOMs and FOAs in theater, where they are doing it, how they are doing it and more importantly how long they have been doing it.

 

[lafyar kokov]

FOMz I completely agree, FOAs and FOMs are forgotten about because the Airships are focused on ATC only.
If a merger is to take place let the controlling streams merge (the basics of the job are similar ofter all) and use TG12 to fill tower posts. Leave Flight Ops to the TG9 Operations Specialists that have been operating in direct support of Operations for many, many years.

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

FOMz I completely agree, FOAs and FOMs are forgotten about because the Airships are focused on ATC only.
If a merger is to take place let the controlling streams merge (the basics of the job are similar ofter all) and use TG12 to fill tower posts. Leave Flight Ops to the TG9 Operations Specialists that have been operating in direct support of Operations for many, many years.

You talk complete tosh of letting TG12 merely fill the tower posts! Do you have the skillset to work as a Data Link Manager at CRC Pyramid or as a TACRO for the FP guys at BSN? No, didn't think so. Seems you have an over inflated opinion of your own job, keeping the blinkers up so that the outside world cannot affect you.

I agree that there are some TG9 jobs that are essential to ops in theatre but please do not belittle my TG12 colleagues with the suggestion that you could do it all. Each TG12 operator we have sent you over the past few years has done sterling work with minimal training.

 

[FOMz]

Do you have the skillset to work as a Data Link Manager at CRC Pyramid or as a TACRO for the FP guys at BSN? .

I'm sure I could go on a course and learn though.

I agree that there are some TG9 jobs that are essential to ops in theatre but please do not belittle my TG12 colleagues with the suggestion that you could do it all. Each TG12 operator we have sent you over the past few years has done sterling work with minimal training.

And many have wanted to stay in TG9..... ask yourself why?

 

[lafyar kokov]

I wasn't trying to suggest that we could do it all (although we couldDT_Xtremez_14

The ATC environment is significantly more suited to the skillsets of TG12 than the Flight Ops environment. I'm not saying they couldn't do it....of course they could with the right training; just as all of TG9 could do the TG12 jobs, but in the era of cost cutting and value for money surely it is better to place people where they already have a majority of the required skills?

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

I'm sure I could go on a course and learn though.

You could, but the lack of experience could tell at some stage

I wasn't trying to suggest that we could do it all (although we couldDT_Xtremez_14

The ATC environment is significantly more suited to the skillsets of TG12 than the Flight Ops environment. I'm not saying they couldn't do it....of course they could with the right training; just as all of TG9 could do the TG12 jobs, but in the era of cost cutting and value for money surely it is better to place people where they already have a majority of the required skills?

Do you even know what TG12 do? You have taken a minor part of TG12 (Weapon Controller's Assistant I presume) and think this is the entire trade. From what I can see most of "traditional" TG9 tasks revolve around flight planning and flight administration. Surely our esteemed admin techs could pick this upDT_Xtremez_19:!!

As for TG12 wanting to jump ship, all you offered was a change in operating enviroment. Most of the personnel were 1st tourists who had yet to see what was on offer outside a Control and Reporting Centre. How many actually put in the paperwork to remuster after a work-experience trip digging you out of manpower holes?

What we all have to grip is that this will only benefit those who join tomorrow. There is no hope for us old and bold who are too set in our ways to change and probably too expensive to train!

 

[Double Rock Right]

I think that something gets very conveniently forgotten whilst harping on about 'Warfighting' ethos.

Firstly, there is absolutely nothing wrong with what the boys and girls on the ground in the TG9 are doing OOA. If there are any problems it is that management have got their knickers in a twist because they feel that they are 'losing out' in perceived prestige to our FC cousins.

Secondly, and actually much more importantly, OOA Ops is only a tiny fraction of the ACTUAL work ATC performs. What we do OOA, is what we do at home, day in day out.

Simply put, we may be 'Warfighters' first, but we are 'ATC Warfighters' which means we provide the services that allow our Airmen to safely and expeditiously get their jobs done, whether that's OOA or in the UK.
Frankly, the core of the job is hardly different apart from the volumes involved.

The core of the job is the same in theatre... Are you for real? There are vast differences in airspace management out there with far, far more to think about.

FOMZ seems quite defensive about his trade and so he should be as it is at risk. Through no fault of their own, FOMs are not respected by most aircrew from my experience. The trade/branch lacks any leadership and to be frank, I am amongst those who think that many of them are a waste is space. Not sure if they are failed controllers however, many carry a hug chip on their shoulder.

 

[R_Squared]

...but the ATC side have become too bogged down in UK doctrine, again I hasten to add through no fault of their own....

It's not unreasonable that we have become engaged in UK airspace controlling, it is after all, the vast majority of the work we do. There is a requirement to shift our focus to support a higher OOA commitment and TBH, that's what is happening.

@ DRR,
I am absolutely for real. Things may be busier and appear on the outside to be very different to the home enviroment, but the core skills and training required to perform are the same.

I also think your immature little tirade against TG9 speaks volumes about your actual involvement and knowledge of the working and duties of the members of the Ops Branch.

 

[Double Rock Right]

Unfortunately, that is how many of us see them. There are good operators out there however, most aircrew would agree that the FOM branch has many, many areas that need addressing. It is a sad fact that the branch is in poor shape, is badly lead and seems to be wallering at the moment. Morale must be rather low.

I do have a strong working knowledge of ops having worked in several sqn ops facilities over the years.

 

[lafyar kokov]

Surely our esteemed admin techs could pick this upDT_Xtremez_19:!!

Touche

What we all have to grip is that this will only benefit those who join tomorrow. There is no hope for us old and bold who are too set in our ways to change and probably too expensive to train!

This is the crux of the matter, as "old and bold" we need to be resigned to the major changes that are going to affect both trades. We are beholden to ensure, as far as possible, a smooth transition. There is no point getting into a pi$$ing contest about who does what and where.
We need to ensure that training packages are top notch, the first cross trade personnel are trained to the highest standard and above all we need to get rid of the prejudices that both trades have about each other.


.....and DRR I think you are confusing Flight Operations Managers with Flight Operations Officers!

 

[FOMz]

FOMs are not respected by most aircrew from my experience.

You fcuking what? I think not old son. You obviously know few aircrew and even less FOMs by the sound of it, or saying that - you're an OpsO which may explain your jealousy. FOAs and FOMs at risk? I think not. ATC in its present form is ripe for the chop, but saying that, swaythes of the current overmanned ABM is also prime for the chop.

 

[Never Alert]

I've had a few airmen head off into the world of TG9 who have come back with good things to say about it. A major pointer is the minimal training required to get scopies up to speed at airfields.

Any merger will not be done at controller level, this is becoming more obvious as time goes on. ATC have no interest in the idea and to be frank, they have a point. Despite what some my think, the job of a WC is actually very different to ATC.

When the axe falls, it will no doubt involve TG12 doing more TG9 tasks. The experimental phase seems to have worked and the manpower is there for use. It can only be a good thing in my opinion.

 

[Never Alert]

You fcuking what? I think not old son. You obviously know few aircrew and even less FOMs by the sound of it, or saying that - you're an OpsO which may explain your jealousy. FOAs and FOMs at risk? I think not. ATC in its present form is ripe for the chop, but saying that, swaythes of the current overmanned ABM is also prime for the chop.

FOMZ, utter bollox...

Overmanned ABM? I'll think you'll find that the weapons side is critically undermanned with the surv guys being only just over 100% for the short term.

our OOA is considerable at the moment and having made ourselves a relevant branch, unlike your airships, we are far better seated for the upcoming cuts.

DRR,

Harsh but fair IMHO. Why is that, barring XI sqn, we have to speak to the authoriser direct to get any decent info ref a/c movement?

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

FOMZ, utter bollox...

Overmanned ABM? I'll think you'll find that the weapons side is critically undermanned with the surv guys being only just over 100% for the short term.

our OOA is considerable at the moment and having made ourselves a relevant branch, unlike your airships, we are far better seated for the upcoming cuts.

DRR,

Harsh but fair IMHO. Why is that, barring XI sqn, we have to speak to the authoriser direct to get any decent info ref a/c movement?

Let me guess, they have a Scopie on XI....

 

[lafyar kokov]

Why is that, barring XI sqn, we have to speak to the authoriser direct to get any decent info ref a/c movement?

The way XI Sqn is set up you are probably speaking direct to the Auth......when you talk to the other Ops Desks the FOA/FOMs speak with such authority and downright brilliance that you think they are the AuthDT_Xtremez_14:

 

[JFOM]

Well all I can say, is listening to the tosh coming out from the TG12 cadre here demonstrates their complete lack of understanding as to what TG9 does.

I feel sorry for any future TG9 having to work under a TG12 SNCO!