Av SAC-CPL promotion board is a joke!

[Ghandi's Flip-Flop]

Those simply suggesting speaking to your first RO to have a poor assessment re-written, what world do you live in. As someone who found myself in this situation I can tell you that unless your 1st RO is ammenable to changing it you haven't a leg to stand on.

Even if his testimony is riddled with contradictions etc 'you can only challenge statements of fact'. The ist RO is entitled to his opinion even if it is intentionally vindictive and riddled with contradiction.

 

[PTR Hoar]

Those simply suggesting speaking to your first RO to have a poor assessment re-written, what world do you live in. As someone who found myself in this situation I can tell you that unless your 1st RO is ammenable to changing it you haven't a leg to stand on.

Even if his testimony is riddled with contradictions etc 'you can only challenge statements of fact'. The ist RO is entitled to his opinion even if it is intentionally vindictive and riddled with contradiction.

I disagree. I've seen plenty of people have their assessment changed when they have presented new evidence. If the subject isn't happy then they should use their chain of command to have it changed unless of course what is written is factually correct and true. Then you may just had to live with the fact you aren't as good as you thought.

Not trying to pick a fight but assessments are the one thing we have some influence over. The RO can only report on what evidence they have available.

 

[Evil Stan]

Lots of ex AMMs getting promoted, I feel as a 1206 SAC(T) that WE have been overlooked, and left in the gutter. I was an A grade last year(low 100s) and a B this year, I've represented the station at sport, have a secondary duty and yet there are lads, 3 years out of Cosford who are A grades(single figures).

Any advice?

You didn't say if you were any good at your job!

 

[Evil Stan]

i can't agree more with the whole "putting the effort in" i mean i've been at brize since august, and volunteered for the leuchars air show, put my name down for afghan even at short notice, and have now volunteered to go to the olympics, which is awesome as i've got the Wembley Stadium! ace. but it will come out good on my sjar next year.

And will any of those taskings show clear examples of your management and leadership potential to advance to the next rank?

 

[Spearmint]

It's very commendable volunteering etc even for the ****ty jobs but as already stated you need examples of responsibility such as serious cash handling duties or positions which enable you to demonstrate your management skills rather than simply being a follower.

 

[Tubby]

Heard today the current board has been frozen due to a massive cock up, not sure if that applies to those released already. Apparently they rated loads of people as c cat due not having to certain auths etc when they infact had them. They also classed a load as u cat assuming they were out or due out so needn't be read, when again infact they were not. Gonna take a few weeks to sort it out so i was told.

 

[Training Cell Supremo]

Top tip 1 - Brag Sheet

Create a word document on your computer at work, keeping a record of all the good things for SJAR time for each assessment year.

Give it 3 headings -

Primary Role (Work good stuff/awards/praises/even the bads bits (lessons learnt etc))
Secondary Role (Secondary duty stuff)
Anything Else (Stuff outside of work - Fun runs/charity work/Sports etc)

What SJAR time comes around, you will have loads of things to go submit to your 1st RO which will give them alot to write about.


Top tip 2 - Personal Objectives

These can be set at anytime, so before the SJAR's are raised by PSF. Get into them, and change them to reflect something that you might of wanted to have done, or even completed in that reported period.


"Fail to Prepare, Prepare to Fail"

Very good advice - Its amazing how much easier it is to write a very good SJAR if the subject can be bothered to big themselves up. If you have 10 peeps working for you its very hard to remember every good thing each of them does.

 

[Joe_90]

You didn't say if you were any good at your job!

The assumption by the board is that we are all good at our jobs unless the SJAR says otherwise. We have all completed our respective Trade Training and passed it, that is good enough.

 

[Evil Stan]

The assumption by the board is that we are all good at our jobs unless the SJAR says otherwise. We have all completed our respective Trade Training and passed it, that is good enough.

Then you clealry don't understand what the board is looking for. They are looking for lots of superlatives and clear examples of how you are out-performing your peers. Go the Manning website and have a look at your latest President's report. A well written B+, High outstrips a poorly written A-, Excp.

 

[Drill Bit]

Then you clealry don't understand what the board is looking for. They are looking for lots of superlatives and clear examples of how you are out-performing your peers. Go the Manning website and have a look at your latest President's report. A well written B+, High outstrips a poorly written A-, Excp.

You are wrong I'm afraid. It is presumed that those candidates presented to the board are good at their job otherwise they wouldn’t be presented to the board (agreeing some smaller trades have no choice but to board everyone). Don't forget that when looking to promote someone, the board look at the potential for an individual to operate at the next rank up. It doesn’t t necessarily equate that someone who is excellent in their current job has what it takes to meet the challenges of the next rank up.; it's the superlatives and examples that define just how good they are and how they’ve displayed that potential. Your argument only proves to highlight how important well written SJARs are and how important examples are in proving the potential that an individual has for advancement in rank.

 

[Odie]

The assumption by the board is that we are all good at our jobs unless the SJAR says otherwise. We have all completed our respective Trade Training and passed it, that is good enough.

That is not good enough. :S Just passing your Trade Training does not make you good. It simply means that you've attained an acceptable standard. If you want to progress, then you've got to set yourself above the common herd. You've got show to those assessing you, and then them to the board through those assessments, that that you're someone who is not only good at their job, but is becoming a rounded person in all aspects of the service, and so deserves promotion. DT_Xtremez_15:

 

[Evil Stan]

You are wrong I'm afraid. It is presumed that those candidates presented to the board are good at their job otherwise they wouldn’t be presented to the board (agreeing some smaller trades have no choice but to board everyone). Don't forget that when looking to promote someone, the board look at the potential for an individual to operate at the next rank up. It doesn’t t necessarily equate that someone who is excellent in their current job has what it takes to meet the challenges of the next rank up.; it's the superlatives and examples that define just how good they are and how they’ve displayed that potential. Your argument only proves to highlight how important well written SJARs are and how important examples are in proving the potential that an individual has for advancement in rank.

Drill Bit I should have clarified, just being good won't get you scored highly at the pre-boarding stage, this is the bit that merit scores individuals with sufficient seniority (and a lucky few without if their SJARs are exceptional). You're right, by the time the A grades are presented to the board, the chaff (B grades) will have been filtered out, hopefully leaving the PSB with only those top rated candidates to merit score and order for the PSL. I stand by what I said though, just because he has passed his trade training and TATs doesn't make him suitable for advancement.

 

[Drill Bit]

Drill Bit I should have clarified, just being good won't get you scored highly at the pre-boarding stage, this is the bit that merit scores individuals with sufficient seniority (and a lucky few without if their SJARs are exceptional). You're right, by the time the A grades are presented to the board, the chaff (B grades) will have been filtered out, hopefully leaving the PSB with only those top rated candidates to merit score and order for the PSL. I stand by what I said though, just because he has passed his trade training and TATs doesn't make him suitable for advancement.

Hello mate; my apologies for getting the wrong end of the stick. I agree with everything you said in your last post.

 

[michaelrattlehead666]

So rattlehead, how does you disappearing off all the time actually help you improve at your actual job? I'm sure your workmates were really happy to have leave rejected so you could litter pick at two locations this summer!

well first of all it shows your putting in effort, volunteering for things, and 2nd, no one is having leave cancelled, each shift has to supply a minimal number of personnel for Op Olympics, so i volunteered rather than be "dicked". so Quit while your ahead.

 

[briggfairy]

well first of all it shows your putting in effort, volunteering for things, and 2nd, no one is having leave cancelled, each shift has to supply a minimal number of personnel for Op Olympics, so i volunteered rather than be "dicked". so Quit while your ahead.

i'm not sure what your expecting to do at an airshow and during the olympics but i don't think much effort will be involved, a lot of bin bags or cones but not very much effort, i'm sure the board will look much more favourably on people who give up their own time to do work in their community rather than swanning off for the summer and failing to become subject matter specialists in their own trade, trust me no matter how many non trade related things you volunteer for and how much you think the management will be impressed by it eventually they will notice that you have fallen behind those that you joined your sqn with in terms of trade knowledge and ability. so what would you rather have in your assessment "is recognised as the no1 sac (t) on the avionics desk by the management and his peers" or "volunteered to work at the olympics and leuchars airshow in a non trade related role".?

of course i may well be wrong and the board may well want people who will do numerous crappy jobs to a passable standard than being able to do one major job better than anyone else can. if so quitting may well be an option.....

 

[michaelrattlehead666]

i'm not sure what your expecting to do at an airshow and during the olympics but i don't think much effort will be involved, a lot of bin bags or cones but not very much effort, i'm sure the board will look much more favourably on people who give up their own time to do work in their community rather than swanning off for the summer and failing to become subject matter specialists in their own trade, trust me no matter how many non trade related things you volunteer for and how much you think the management will be impressed by it eventually they will notice that you have fallen behind those that you joined your sqn with in terms of trade knowledge and ability. so what would you rather have in your assessment "is recognised as the no1 sac (t) on the avionics desk by the management and his peers" or "volunteered to work at the olympics and leuchars airshow in a non trade related role".?

of course i may well be wrong and the board may well want people who will do numerous crappy jobs to a passable standard than being able to do one major job better than anyone else can. if so quitting may well be an option.....

i don't understand how doing a couple of things a year will make me "fail to become subject matter specialist" in my trade. and for both the matters in question, the reason i was volunteered was, i'd rather be volunteered than be "dicked". Especially for Op Olympics. On Guard Team at Wembley Stadium. Hoo Rah.

 

[Max]

i don't understand how doing a couple of things a year will make me "fail to become subject matter specialist" in my trade. and for both the matters in question, the reason i was volunteered was, i'd rather be volunteered than be "dicked". Especially for Op Olympics. On Guard Team at Wembley Stadium. Hoo Rah.

Big Gayer, only a fairy or shiney..

 

[Hoop1980]

I'm all for secondary duties being used to differentiate between people who seem evenly matched in their primary role, but to me they seems to be more weight given to non-primary tasks. Not an easy task, admittedly.

We all know people who get promoted on the strength of their secondary duties, who spend little to no time performing their primary job. Doing secondary duties in work time instead of your job isn't "going above and beyond" IMO.

I'm in a similar boat at the moment. At least 2 ex AMMs in my sqn have been picked up. To my knowledge, neither of these are considered to be achieving above their peers in their primary role, and one of them seems to spend most of his work time doing anything other than actual work. Neither have deployed anywhere, whereas I have planned and lead successful detachments on exercise and ops in acting rank with no top cover while deployed. In this case I think it comes down to the 1st RO to indicate that while SAC xxxxxxx's secondary duties are commendable, they are often performed to the detriment of their actual job. Whether the 1st RO's management would allow that narrative to stand is another matter, but I think I know the answer to that one.

Another thing is the advice of president's reports to rank SACs amongst their peers. This is all well and good when you're number 1 or 2, but in some cases I've seen ROs neglect to do this as to rank someone 7 or 8 of 8 would make them seem unpromotable. To me, they should put this in their narrative for all if they're doing it for some, as to not do so allows those achieving lower than their peers to be scored as high or higher than those that were ranked above them by the first RO.

Actually, to rank SACs seems daft to me full stop. Numbers 8,9 & 10 in one workplace might all be better than number 1 in another, yet the rankings make it seem otherwise. Fair? Not IMO.

 

[sleddog]

It's not just secondary duties though is it, it's how they perform in them. Can they back up evidence that they had a managerial, leadership role and/or have responsibility in that position and have exercised it effectively. Also, I'd definitely recommend continual recording of what you have been upto. Last year and this year, I collated upto 6pages of A4, neatly typed up, for my 1st RO to disseminate into my sjar. I wrote them in a statement and fact style, I.e. backed up why I've shown this because etc. It's wasn't all other non trade work stuff either, although I've been in a premium position at my place to be able to be 'supervisor' for lots and lots of jobs so have written about them. But not just written 'I have been able to supervise a csas bite', I expanded each bit. I've done a Junior leadership & development course (JLDC) which I got good insight from and was defo worth doing (almost becoming mandatory for SACs to do now). And I've organised visits, done airshows. I also have contact with industry, and am In charge of all software, maps crypto, etc, organise configs for dets, etc. Just give your 1st RO, the best evidence you can so it's easy for him to write it.

I've seen guys just give ROs a quick drawn up scribbled list of their 'achievements', then moan a year later when their still to being read.

So I don't think it's what you've done, it's how your doing it. Play the game, not just tag along for the ride then whinge when it doesn't happen.

 

[4everAD]

Sleddog, not my trade so excuse me butting in, but great advice on SJARs. I have received all sorts of brag sheetsfrom my SACs and believe me if you hand one to me like the one you've just explained then (As long as it's the truth) you are virtually writing your own SJAR. Not often you can have that much influence in your own career!