Civvy Aircraft or Not?

[duffman]

Something from another thread got me thinking about the change from mil to civvy or lack of.
For those that have left or are about to leave, if you did why did you choose not to work on civvy a/c? What was it that made you not go down the route of civvy licenses? Was another field more appealing or was it something that put you off such as gaining the licences? I only ask as few people I knew that have left, left to go into civvy a/c and all went without licenses, nor had they even looked into started them. I wondered if this is true across most units, or having never worked on ME do a lot go from there?
Even if you did go the civvy a/c route feel free to chip in.

 

[spanners]

I’m coming to the end of my 22 year career as a Rigger (not multi-skilled) and to be honest, I’ve had enough of working on aircraft and feel that a new direction is needed. I, along with many before me, am looking at the off-shore industry. The skills are easily transferable and my years of experience will hold me in good stead. Sure it’s hard work, inhospitable conditions, long shifts and time away, but there is a reason they offer the money they do.
I realise there is a down turn in the oil industry at the moment,but there is always MPI (or whatever they are called now) at Lossie to kill time till it picks up.

 

[GD on Wheels]

Whats the attraction with working off shore?Accept for the money of course.

 

[spanners]

Whats the attraction with working off shore?Accept for the money of course.

Sure money is a factor as it is with many things in life but also as I wish to stay in the area, I have had to ask myself what jobs would I be happy doing in this area, I could work full time at NSG, Kinloss (Nimrod Majors etc) but they are winding down as the MR2 comes to an end, MPI at Lossie, not a long term contract, Inverness/Aberdeen Airport, they’re plan B, so that leaves engineering off-shore or maybe on-shore. So, location is a key factor for me.

 

[smudgethecat]

I only wish i hadnt gone down the mil route, wasted too much time being treated like a piece of crap and being paid peanuts , i then left with no idea of how important getting licensed and obtaining decent type ratings on that licence is, dont make the same mistake, if your going to stay in the game and want to earn reasonable money get your B1 or B2 ticket before you leave, once you have your licence and you get the popular types on it ie a320/1 330,/340/b757/767/737/777 etc your away, if you dont your options are very limited ,its taken me eight years to get there but well worth the effort, working on the line now for a bigish uk operator, basic pay around 52k plus o/t ,plenty of detchments abroad etc, really enjoying it

 

[Rigga]

Personally, I always wanted to work on aircraft - but I failed the entrance exams for BMI, BEA and BOAC so I joined the RAF as a Rigger Mech instead.

I hated the RAF Lifestyle so much that I left just as soon as 24 years was over.

In the late 80's I had been in the unenviable position of not knowing if I would get signed-on beyond 15 years, so I made myself an "Exit Plan" and got my first "A&C" Licence Without Type Ratings. (Turbine-Engined Helicopters)
For the following ten years (whilst still in the Mob) I managed to 'collect', through almost constant studying, almost all the "A&C" sets going. Rather disappointingly, I still don't have Balloons or Gliders.

I used to openly laugh at crusty old Chiefs and Fruit Segments who declared they "knew it all" when leaving the mob - when they had no idea of what industry they were walking into and, if they had looked into qualifications, said that they didn't see why they should be made to do exams when they knew it all already!

I'd never thought of doing anything else other than getting a warmer job than the Line - boring though that might sound - I am now the Manager of a nice small team in my Quality Dept.

Many of the old Chiefs I knew are still working in the hangars, often on quite low pay. I often get to go out to the aircraft when I see the need and I get to sit in the office when its ugly outside.

No overtime, no shifts, no sweat.

 

[duffman]

Smudge, did you do start any of your licences in the mob or do the whole lot outside?

 

[smudgethecat]

Smudge, did you do start any of your licences in the mob or do the whole lot outside?

hi mate, outside, i didnt realise how the whole thing worked in civvy street, had the usual, forces "were gods gift to aviation attitude" etc why do i need licences? quickly learned i actually didnt know that much and that the only way to get on is to get licensed, if i didnt i would be spending the rest of my days taking off panels or greasing landing gear , my advice is if your thinking of a civvy career start studying now.

 

[chiefy]

Something from another thread got me thinking about the change from mil to civvy or lack of.
For those that have left or are about to leave, if you did why did you choose not to work on civvy a/c? What was it that made you not go down the route of civvy licenses? Was another field more appealing or was it something that put you off such as gaining the licences? I only ask as few people I knew that have left, left to go into civvy a/c and all went without licenses, nor had they even looked into started them. I wondered if this is true across most units, or having never worked on ME do a lot go from there?
Even if you did go the civvy a/c route feel free to chip in.

If you had asked me 10 years ago I would have told you I was going outside to earn a fortune maintaining or repairing aircraft and about to embark on licensing...... and then I started to get feedback from my friends who had done just that. It's a crap job! Plenty of guys are earning decent money now but to get where they are has taken considerable time, plenty have also got out of the game because they were sick to death of the nomadic lifestyle, insecurity and their wives moaning that they are never at home. It's a young single lads game - much like working offshore you can only do it for so long.

I took a different route and started to broaden my CV then and am mightily glad I did, I get calls and e-mails from guys now asking if I know of other opportunities in my new career as they want out of the aircraft industry; some are still working on military aircraft (and you can't blame them) but recently a mate who has been working as a licensed engineer for about 8 years asked me about roles in project management and engineering management!

I suppose the last reason, and probably the reason I know I made the right choice; after 25 years on fixed and rotary wing aircraft I was bored out of my mind! Change is good, it prevents you from going stale and really puts some enthusiasm back into your career plus............................................. I got used to being in charge and I don't think I could live without the power DT_Xtremez_30:

 

[BillyBunter]

On the note of JAR 66 licenses and all that malarky , they reckon in about 5 years time everyone in the RAF will have to conform to civilian practises, so for those with a few years left to do it could be worth staying in and grabbing what you can.

And just in case you wondered where that info came from ..... A highly reliable source

 

[Rigga]

Billy,
I've read the RAF's MAOS Def Standards for Part 145 and Pt M (freely available on the MOD website!) and they are essentially loosened forms of the EASA Regulations (though they have been somewhat messed up!).

If the RAF was to use those regs (as written) you would probably be close to the civvy working standards and Licences - though a mate (another highly reliable source?) says that there would be A, B & C "Approvals" instead of Licences.

I have no doubt that all fengos, bengos and sengos would automatically be given C's with no real consideration of their suitability or experience levels - and nobody else would get them! (thereby robbing jobs from Chiefs and Sgts and severely undermining their own status - I'd think!)

 

[fileeth]

Have just left after 23 1/2 years, though not finished serving if you know what i mean DT_Xtremez_15:

Like chiefy had got bored in my job although not with my trade and a change of direction was needed so have just embarked on a journey into the power generation world i.e power station maintenance and overhaul.
This means i can now live at home each night and not have to partake in the weekend warrior marlarkey like i have been for the last 3 1/2 years plus the money is betterDT_Xtremez_14:

Personnally its an improvement in quality of life all round for me and mine!!

 

[Spearmint]

I was planning to start my B1 and then my B2 licence once I had finished my current role but on thinking about it there are many more paths that can be taken engineering wise. Time for some investigation I think as I'm on the verge for PVR'ing anyway.

 

[duffman]

For those already on civvy a/c, would you say the number of people leaving the raf have fallen in the past couple of years? Do you find more are coming in from colleges and apprentiships?

 

[matkat]

Duffman that is a very good question and unfortunately this is true when I left 20 years ago most of the "new blood" were indeed ex RAF guys I no longer work on the shop floor but my last position was as the continued airworthiness manager for a part 145 organisation in yorkshire IIRC there was only 3 ex forces people the QA manager ,an engineer on the line and myself.

 

[Talk Wrench]

For those already on civvy a/c, would you say the number of people leaving the raf have fallen in the past couple of years? Do you find more are coming in from colleges and apprentiships?

There are lots of guys who come out of the RAF and quickly realise that they have the skills, but not the ticket. This leads to a "bleed" of skills into other areas of engineering away from aircraft. This is very very sad, particularly when good, experienced skilled techicians with over ten years experience are lost.

I have seen lots of good guys on the contract circuit who are ex RAF and who are good engineers.

However, we are seeing guys who have been lured into the well paying production contracts who are now filtering through to the MRO's. A lot of these guys are not worth the paper that their CV is written on. I am talking mainly about ex SAC Techs who only have experience on pulse lines and no real in depth knowledge of aircraft systems and engineering in general. This is no fault of there own because of the system of employment that they have been subjected to.

There are of course ex SAC techs who have really broken the mould and have become good techys out in the real world.

There are lots of guys who take non aircraft jobs simply to stay in one place.

In general,

There is a shortage of engineers out here and the drawdown in manpower over the last few years means that there is less qualified people joining the industry after leaving the RAF.


TW

 

[Captain Gatso]

Gotta agree with you TW. We have had one new ex RAF bod join us in the last year and that's it. From what DM has mentioned, the new lads we are getting from college are not many at all. We have an apprenteship scheme going but we are one of the rare ones who are doing it. Other Airlines still have not realised that they are going to be in trouble in a few years, as all thier current licenced bods will have retired and there is not enough folks filing the gaps. On the subject of licences, me and a few others were in our tiny little tea bar in our hanger last night talking about this very subject. One thing that came up was the North American FAA, A and P licence. A mate told me that he spent 2K going to the states and spent a total of 7 days getting the FAA, A and P licence. It was easy according to him and you can use it to get a job working for an American Airline outstation in the Uk. They produce three books, one for Airframe and Propulsion, the other for Electics and Avionics and the rest is done on American Legislation. In total they have three thousand questions that they give you on a computer system but the answers for these questions are all in the back of the books due to the American freedom of information act. My mate said he went on one of these courses after reading up on the answers, he got 95% in total and his oral board lasted a grand total of twenty minutes which mainly involved on how to use a micrometer and Vernier caliper. Most folks don't really rate the FAA system but to have the licence which does not expire might be handy in your back pocket.

 

[duffman]

Cpt Gatso, is there a big difference is wages between us and uk licence?
Talk wrench what's an MRO?

 

[Dirty Harry]

MRO = Maintenance Repair & Overhaul Facility

As for the difference in wages between UK and US licences, I hold a UK EASA Part-66 B1 AML with 8 type ratings and have all company approvals including full power engine runs and borescope. My basic salary including licence pay, approval pay and shift pay is £53k. Overtime is extra. I know a couple of A&P guys and their on somewhere in the low 40's. Rikster (regularly posts on the goat) has a US ticket, I'm sure he'll give you some idea of his salary.

It should be noted that holding a licence does not automatically equal big bucks. You've got to prove that you are worthy of type courses and capable of holding a company approval. There are plenty of guys out here who have passed all the exams and are sitting on licenses but that does not necessarily mean the company is going to let them use it. Passing the exams is the easy bit, getting the necessary experience and demonstrating your ability alongside all the other civvy trained guys is not so straightforward.

For those already on civvy a/c, would you say the number of people leaving the raf have fallen in the past couple of years? Do you find more are coming in from colleges and apprentiships?

At my place of work there are 6 ex-RAF. 2 of us are LAE’s, the other guys are mechanics. Bar two, all of us have all left the mob in the last 5 years. In my limited experience of the civil aircraft industry there appears to be less and less ex-forces guys coming through. This is a real shame as many switched on guys have the ability to go on to bigger and better things in civvy street. The beauty of life out here is that it’s down to you how far you progress and not the system. It can take a couple of years to get there but it sure is worth it.

A lot of the folk you see filtering through now are products of the college era where you can go and spend 2 years studying for a licence. These institutions do nothing more than to teach you to pass the exams. They certainly do not produce skilled engineers and the standard of most is quite simply shocking. Basic hand skills and manual dexterity is almost non existent. Unfortunately these guys expect LAE status and the rock star wages they’ve been promised by the colleges within days of passing the course, however they end up bitterly disappointed. There is an old saying in civil aviation – “the licence does not make the licensed engineer”. There are other qualities that are an absolute must and the vast majority of certifiers have gone through some kind of proper training scheme and spent many a year on the tools.

plus............................................. I got used to being in charge and I don't think I could live without the power

I’m not sure whether that comment was genuine or made in jest chiefy. Either way, there may be an element in truth in what you are saying. Perhaps some of the older sweats steer clear of the civil aircraft industry for fear of having to start all over again as it isn’t simply a case of carrying on where you left off. Like Rigga, having worked on both sides of the fence I now chuckle at all those know it all types who think the world owes them a favour when they eventually come to leave. If only they knew what was out there. It is a sad fact but many civvies have poor expectations of us ex-forces guys due to one or two bad experiences and they tend to tar us all with the same brush. Unfortunately it is these know it all individuals who quickly come unstuck and give the rest of us a bad name.

 

[I Look Like Kevin Costner]

duffman,

Passing the exams is the easy bit, getting the necessary experience and demonstrating your ability alongside all the other civvy trained guys is not so straightforward.

Hit the nail on the head there Mate. It has got to be remebered thatwhen you make the step you will be working for guys who have experience on their rated types of many years (and will pull that experience out effortlessly). They know their stuff and there are a lot of Mechs who can match their supervisors.

The practical experience is more important to the CAA than having the modules. You need to demonstrate to them (via your log book) the full range of requirements for that licence. Newbies just don't that chance to do everything.

However I've worked with people who have got the basic ticket and have worked on various types for years, yet never have taken a rating (you wonder why then you see them working and understand!)