DE Sgt Controllers.

[R_Squared]

Anyone care to elaborate on why the 'Fast Track' system has failed?

Because it failed to generate enough controllers in the allocated timescales.

What will be the educational requirements for recruitment? - same as NCO Aircrew?

5 GCSE's so Yes

By targetting the same pool as NCO Aircrew, effectively competing for the same person, how will we make DE ATC attractive?

Not everyone wants to fly, and it is higher rate 'Techie' pay. Plus many people joined up under the old systems to be controllers and were prepared to put up with the requirements of their time to do so, this makes it MORE attractive.

What will we do with the ones that fail JATCC/ fail to endorse? Rejoin as LAC FOA- not many takers for that methinks.

They will be out, simple as that. Have to reapply just as Aircrew have to if they bin it.

Why does a controller need to be a SNCO?- USAF do not have FOA or equivalent- join as a controller, pass out of training as Airman 1st Class- control aircraft- work your way up the ranks. (Note- the USAF has NO Officer controllers.)

Rank and pay commensurate with responsibilty.
The Yanks have a completely different system, it's quite irrelevant TBH.

Will DE/ Transfer in be available for other trades too?- I quite fancy the idea of being a DE Sgt Painter and Finisher or maybe MT or RAFP, actually techie cos they get more money.

I funking doubt it, and ATC SNECS are paid the higher pay band anyway.

Seriously though, it will probably work on the console. However, the wider implications have to be considered.

I have worked with large numbers of NCO Aircrew in the AT/SH Fleets- They are, in the main, mostly good types. However, they tend to be clustered in large numbers on a small number of stations amongst their own kind. They work and socialise together. There is an element (not including me) who consider them 'plastics' etc and do not acknowledge their SNCO status. I have attended 'former cpl nights' in the bar at Odiham!

A potentially 19yr old DE Sgt arriving on a unit where there are no NCO Aircrew will be moving into the Sgts Mess where everyone will be 10-20 years older than him/her and a fair number will consider him/her a 'plastic'. He/she will not be able to socialise on camp with their peer group (no naafi bop). Socialising off base could produce some disciplinary problems- they are going to be VERY LONELY.

NCO Aircrew have their brevet and golden birdie thingys that tell everyone who they are and what they do. A DE ATC Sgt will not have these and will
have trouble 'establishing' himself- to be frank he will look like an Air Training Corps 'adult Sgt'. - One of the most important attributes of a good SNCO is credibility.

Regardless of the suitability of AAITC/ JMLC/ ILMC there are certain skills that cannot be taught, they have to be learnt by experience. How will he/she cope with being SSGF Cdr with a shift of techie SAC/Cpls with 15 years service in?
OK, the book/ tor's say do this or that- will he/she be able to manage a dozen TG1 Cpl's/ SAC's who don't want to be there and only want to watch dvd's all week?

A 19 year old is a 19 year old, regardless of rank/trade etc.. Will he/she have the depth of character/maturity to be an effective SNCO?- Please do not tell me that AAITC/ILMC can teach this!

I imagine that a leaf will be taken out of the Aircrew book on most of these issues. The infrastructure is already there to look after JO's, it'll just extend to DE's too.

What will be the effect on the morale of 'more senior members' of the trade. I suspect there are many experienced SAC's/Cpl's who may have trouble with the new DE Sgt, especially considering the point above. Our JNCO's and juniors expect Plt Off's to be spotty and immature (this is not intended as an insult) however they expect and deserve to have credible, mature and experienced SNCO's.

Understandable, however we have all had time to get used to Fast Trackers, and only the most bitter and twisted still hold a grudge. The same will apply, we all have a job to do and we all have to Man up and deal with it at the end of the day. I wouldn't go as far as SSH and tell people to grip it or F@ck off, but we will all be on different career paths now, Aircrew don't affect your promotion, DE ATC SNEC's won't either.

Don't get me wrong... I'm in favour of anything that will resolve the long standing SNCO Controller saga as quite frankly I'm fed up with hearing about it in every TG9 brief I've been to in last God knows how many years. Hopefully this will allow us to concentrate on more important issues in the trade such as FOM OOA's, SAC/CPL Ratio's, Integration with Flt Ops/ ASop, sick notes, lack of career management etc...

Quite rightly too, hopefully DE will address some of these issues too.

I'm sure someone has considered and thought of solutions to the above points(?)- Please let me know!!

Sooms- the eternal optimist.

Hope this helps. DT_Xtremez_15:

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

At the end of the day it is coming in and it will be hear to stay.

Everyone will have a role in its development and develop it has to. At the end of the day they will be Controllers first and SNCOs second.

People are focusing on the guys coming off the street, what you must remember is that this will be open to anyone who goes to Cranwell on NCA selection. There is now a massive pool of people to select from and notall of them are going to be fresh out of the packet. I have known loads of NCA who are just out of training and have no problem with the rank or role. I cannot see why this won't happen with DE ATC.

At the end ofthe day it is down to the attitudes of the guys already in to allow it to develop.

To all those people who are not happy about it I ask this "Would you have gone for it if it had been available 15 years ago?" . If people are that desperate to control then they now have to put that extra work in to get it. A 6000 supplement for controller suitability is not the way forward, a full on session at Cranwell will give the right people a chance, they have shown that they WANT to do it and not just selected on a couple of 6000s. How many people who have done JATCC would have gone down the NCA selection process and AAITC if they had to do all that jumping through hoops to get to Shawbury. Very very few.

I for one think it is a top idea

 

[Chaka]

I totally agree SSH.

The RAF has to move with the times and as long as the selection process is robust enough at OASC and Sgt training at Cranwell, these individuals should be well prepared for the rigours of SNCO duties. Thanks to earlier mis-management/funding, the lack of SNCO selection/training process for FOA(ATC) has meant that CATCS is having to pick up the pieces and kick the FOA fast trackers arses to be SNCOs. A job that CATCS should not really be doing in such depth!

If the DE Sgt comes to fruition (and I hope it does), with careful thought/mangement/funding it should work. I shall be watching from the sidelines with interest.DT_Xtremez_27:

 

[FOMz]

Well said guys and I'm in total agreement. To quote a certain airship - If you don't like where the train is going - hop off.

DE's - Its the future.

 

[R_Squared]

To all those people who are not happy about it I ask this "Would you have gone for it if it had been available 15 years ago?" . If people are that desperate to control then they now have to put that extra work in to get it. A 6000 supplement for controller suitability is not the way forward, a full on session at Cranwell will give the right people a chance, they have shown that they WANT to do it and not just selected on a couple of 6000s. How many people who have done JATCC would have gone down the NCA selection process and AAITC if they had to do all that jumping through hoops to get to Shawbury. Very very few.

I for one think it is a top idea

I disagree on a couple of points here.
I don't think it is easy to get the right recommendations for JATCC. You had to prove yourself to people who quite often had little knowledge of who you are.
You would have to put yourself out to get noticed.
If DE had been an option on joining when I joined I certainly would have gone that route, the jumping through hoops at Cranwell for a few months would be infinitely preferable to years of being an assistant and would not have daunted me.
Also you're saying that previous generations would have been put off by going through Cranwell but not the current generation. Why what difference would it make?
I asked a couple of the guys about this at work and the responses I got were that many would consider DE as soon as it becomes available rather than hang about under the old systems.
I do agree (after some consideration) that it is a good idea. Certainly it shouldn't do the Trade too much harm, and should in fact bolster the Ops side eventually, but it will get people's backs up.
We shouldn't just discount the resentment it will generate, it may not be the fault of the individuals joining that they get to DE and leap fog over others heads, but others have also been working hard under the systems available when they joined up to Control. That is not their fault either.

The one thing I have been surprised at is the total lack of reaction to this.
When fast tracking was announced it was to a huge fan-fare and general all round explanation of what is to come.
This has sneaked in under the door via a letter doing the rounds, and with little explanation as to it's impact, aims, and repercussions on the trade in general.
Considering it's such a monumental change to the trade (and to the Air Force being the first Ground Trade to DE) I expected more.
It has been only the matter of brief discussion at work, with no briefings planned and I certainly expected their to be a thread on here before I posted it!
There seems to be a certain dis-interested resignation about it, is this a legacy of FT? Does no-one really care that much or what?
Or have I missed something?

 

[FOMz]

Or the fact that it hasn't filtered down fully yet? I caught a quick glimpse of the letter about it last night, I'm sure trade sponsor and/or WOTG9 will push more info out at some point soon.

Its been muted for ages, its not as if its just come out of the blue is it??

 

[R_Squared]

Or the fact that it hasn't filtered down fully yet? I caught a quick glimpse of the letter about it last night, I'm sure trade sponsor and/or WOTG9 will push more info out at some point soon.

Its been muted for ages, its not as if its just come out of the blue is it??

Very good point, The decision was only made last week but I assumed the announcement would have been held onto until they were prepared to face the public, and the inevitable Q&A's that may have erupted (which doesn't seemed to have happened strangely enough).

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

I disagree on a couple of points here.
I don't think it is easy to get the right recommendations for JATCC. You had to prove yourself to people who quite often had little knowledge of who you are.
You would have to put yourself out to get noticed.

It is not the same as putting your head in the newspapers, learning about the RAF of today and doing leadership tests.

As someone who has not been in ten years yet, have you done any SNCO courses? You got your JATCC through an assessment in competition with peers in your trade. DE and applicants from within the service will have to compete on a larger scale.

Also you're saying that previous generations would have been put off by going through Cranwell but not the current generation. Why what difference would it make?
I asked a couple of the guys about this at work and the responses I got were that many would consider DE as soon as it becomes available rather than hang about under the old systems.

No, I am saying that people now and then would never have been controllers if they had to go down that route, what was difficult about getting your JATCC? What did you have to do in your own time? What interviews would you have had to attend? Get my drift? There is nowhere near the amount of effort required for the old system as there will be for the new.

I do agree (after some consideration) that it is a good idea. Certainly it shouldn't do the Trade too much harm, and should in fact bolster the Ops side eventually, but it will get people's backs up.
We shouldn't just discount the resentment it will generate, it may not be the fault of the individuals joining that they get to DE and leap fog over others heads, but others have also been working hard under the systems available when they joined up to Control. That is not their fault either.

I have not seen the letter and I do hope that WO Tg9 sends me a copy or brings me one but there are bound to be legacy and systems for getting already suitable people on the course. It still stems down to this, if they are that desperate (choice of words) to become controllers then prove it, do Cranwell.

Since about 1999 no one has been able to have the right to JATCC selection outside of Fast Tracker, well except that small pool that was done to fill the quota. There should be very few eligible left now.

DE is here to stay and as I said, it is the way forward

 

[R_Squared]

It is not the same as putting your head in the newspapers, learning about the RAF of today and doing leadership tests.

As someone who has not been in ten years yet, have you done any SNCO courses? You got your JATCC through an assessment in competition with peers in your trade. DE and applicants from within the service will have to compete on a larger scale.



No, I am saying that people now and then would never have been controllers if they had to go down that route, what was difficult about getting your JATCC? What did you have to do in your own time? What interviews would you have had to attend? Get my drift? There is nowhere near the amount of effort required for the old system as there will be for the new.



I have not seen the letter and I do hope that WO Tg9 sends me a copy or brings me one but there are bound to be legacy and systems for getting already suitable people on the course. It still stems down to this, if they are that desperate (choice of words) to become controllers then prove it, do Cranwell.

Since about 1999 no one has been able to have the right to JATCC selection outside of Fast Tracker, well except that small pool that was done to fill the quota. There should be very few eligible left now.

DE is here to stay and as I said, it is the way forward

I actually find most of what you say here quite insulting. That because I have 'only' completed 9 years service and my JATCC, that I am less worthy of holding controller status than a DE. That my efforts were negligible compared to what a DE now faces.
Competition? I think the competitive pool for JATCC is quite large as it stands, especially as I was FOA(Q)AATC and had to compete against fast trackers. The idea, with recruitment as it stands, that new applicants will face overwhelming competition is actually laughable.
SNCO courses? I do still have to complete IMLC, but frankly after the stress and pressure of JATCC I'm not worried about that FFS. Also, you may or may not agree, but my rank as JNCO has helped me prepare for SNCO status. Even though they were giving out Cpl stripes with cornflakes I still had to be selected for promotion, and then pass JMLC. Then prove everyday that I was worthy of that promotion and deserving of further promotion. Even if I had to go to Cranwell to become a controller I would do it, I wouldn't bat an eye lid.
What was difficult about getting my JATCC? I'm not going into this because that is just a bl@@dy insult frankly. Just because you don't walk into a room and sit in front of some officers doesn't mean that you don't get interviewed for JATCC. What about continuous assessment? If you're not in a tower you had to get over to one to meet the controllers otherwise you get 'I do not know this Airman/woman'. Time spent over there is the only time you would be assessed/ interviewed by them.
I wasn't aware that anyone had the automatic 'right' to JATCC selection, you still had to be assessed and have your assessment go before a board and then be selected.
DT_Xtremez_32:

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

I actually find most of what you say here quite insulting.

Get out of here, get a thicker skin

That because I have 'only' completed 9 years service and my JATCC, that I am less worthy of holding controller status than a DE. That my efforts were negligible compared to what a DE now faces.

It is nothing to do with "only" 9 years and your efforts, it is about the desire to control. There are plenty of people who have passed JATCC that will NOT have jumped through the Cranwell hoops to do the course. Apart from turn up to work and be able to do the job well, what did you do to get JATCC? Did you get interviewed? Did you do leadership tests? Were you tested on current affairs? Could you tell me what role 28 Sqn have at the moment? This is not a pop at you, it is a pop at the system, they are selecting people to be controllers first and SNCOs second.

Competition? I think the competitive pool for JATCC is quite large as it stands, especially as I was FOA(Q)AATC and had to compete against fast trackers. The idea, with recruitment as it stands, that new applicants will face overwhelming competition is actually laughable.

The competition for JATCC will be greater now, of course it will. You are not restricted to TG9 anymore, it open to everyman and his dog who meets the criteria AND passes selection at Cranwell

SNCO courses? I do still have to complete IMLC, but frankly after the stress and pressure of JATCC I'm not worried about that FFS.

Good attitude to go to Halton with. Glad you will breeze it

What was difficult about getting my JATCC? I'm not going into this because that is just a bl@@dy insult frankly. Just because you don't walk into a room and sit in front of some officers doesn't mean that you don't get interviewed for JATCC. What about continuous assessment? If you're not in a tower you had to get over to one to meet the controllers otherwise you get 'I do not know this Airman/woman'. Time spent over there is the only time you would be assessed/ interviewed by them.
I wasn't aware that anyone had the automatic 'right' to JATCC selection, you still had to be assessed and have your assessment go before a board and then be selected.
DT_Xtremez_32:

You had an interview for JATCC? What were the questions? Would be intrigued to see that one.

Again, you are looking at this how YOU want to see it. You are far too defensive. No one has the automatic right to JATCC but the efforts required to get JATCC now will be higher.

I know that JATCC is hard work, I know the stresses it puts on people. That is what the course is all about. You have to look outside of your personal situation and read what I have written. If you take it as an insult then that is your choice.

 

[R_Squared]

Get out of here, get a thicker skin

It's on order.

There are plenty of people who have passed JATCC that will NOT have jumped through the Cranwell hoops to do the course. Apart from turn up to work and be able to do the job well, what did you do to get JATCC? Did you get interviewed? Did you do leadership tests? Were you tested on current affairs? Could you tell me what role 28 Sqn have at the moment? This is not a pop at you, it is a pop at the system, they are selecting people to be controllers first and SNCOs second.

If all you had to do was turn up for work then everyone would get a shot at it. Who needs leadership tests, knowledge on current affairs or even needs to know who 28 Sqn are for JATCC, it's not about any of those things, it's about controlling.
Cranwell for 12 weeks or 9 years as an assistant? Which prepares you better for JATCC or SNCO status? On the basis of what you have been posting, I would say you side with the Cranwell option. I think both have an equal chance of doing it.

The competition for JATCC will be greater now, of course it will. You are not restricted to TG9 anymore, it open to everyman and his dog who meets the criteria AND passes selection at Cranwell

Only if they actually want to do it surely. Anyone who desperately wanted to control would already be TG9 anyway.
Just because they make it Direct Entry doesn't mean that suddenly hordes of chefs, scuffers, techies et all are going to down tools and rush over to TG9. They still have to want to be controllers, not just SNCO's.
We may get an increase in applicants from the street, but we'll just have to wait and see what the uptake is.

Good attitude to go to Halton with. Glad you will breeze it

I didn't say I would breeze it, rather that I wasn't worried about it. I have learnt to handle highly pressurised situations, and I have found that I can cope with them, hence, I'm not worried. NOT that it will be easy.

You had an interview for JATCC? What were the questions? Would be intrigued to see that one.

I posted here.

What about continuous assessment? If you're not in a tower you had to get over to one to meet the controllers otherwise you get 'I do not know this Airman/woman'. Time spent over there is the only time you would be assessed/ interviewed by them.

An interview is a way of assessing someone you don't know.
When you work alongside someone an interview is irrelevant. If anything, it is harder to maintain a facade in that situation rather than in an interview situation. Assessors can truly see what an individual is like over a long period of time and in various situations and make an assessment on their true potential rather than 30 mins asking about the 'role of 28 sqn', and what they think of the developing situation in Puerto Rico.

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

If all you had to do was turn up for work then everyone would get a shot at it. Who needs leadership tests, knowledge on current affairs or even needs to know who 28 Sqn are for JATCC, it's not about any of those things, it's about controlling.
Cranwell for 12 weeks or 9 years as an assistant? Which prepares you better for JATCC or SNCO status? On the basis of what you have been posting, I would say you side with the Cranwell option. I think both have an equal chance of doing it.

Okay then, let us have the controlling branch civilianized. You don't need to know anything about current affairs, the role of the RAF etc Will look great when you as a SNCO are asked about what the RAF is doing in umaubaland and you say "fcuk off I am a controller". JATCC is a controllers course, even if you are a controller first, you are a SNCO second. My opinion is that if we insist on SNCO controllers then they should be SNCOs first. Officers do not do time as assistants, they still pass the course off the street.

Only if they actually want to do it surely. Anyone who desperately wanted to control would already be TG9 anyway.
Just because they make it Direct Entry doesn't mean that suddenly hordes of chefs, scuffers, techies et all are going to down tools and rush over to TG9. They still have to want to be controllers, not just SNCO's.
We may get an increase in applicants from the street, but we'll just have to wait and see what the uptake is.

Not really, might find a few scopies, admin etc may fancy it, you are making big assumptions. Look at the RN, they do not join up as assistants, they join as every trade under the sun. They then apply to become an HC. Works for them.

I didn't say I would breeze it, rather that I wasn't worried about it. I have learnt to handle highly pressurised situations, and I have found that I can cope with them, hence, I'm not worried. NOT that it will be easy.

I bow in your presence

An interview is a way of assessing someone you don't know.
When you work alongside someone an interview is irrelevant. If anything, it is harder to maintain a facade in that situation rather than in an interview situation. Assessors can truly see what an individual is like over a long period of time and in various situations and make an assessment on their true potential rather than 30 mins asking about the 'role of 28 sqn', and what they think of the developing situation in Puerto Rico.

Talk about contradiction.So what happens at Cranwell? You have just said exactly what they do at Cranwell.

You cannot see outside of the box, you are not being three dimensional. Not good skills for a SNCO Controller do you think?

 

[R_Squared]

Okay then, let us have the controlling branch civilianized. You don't need to know anything about current affairs, the role of the RAF etc Will look great when you as a SNCO are asked about what the RAF is doing in umaubaland and you say "fcuk off I am a controller". JATCC is a controllers course, even if you are a controller first, you are a SNCO second. My opinion is that if we insist on SNCO controllers then they should be SNCOs first. Officers do not do time as assistants, they still pass the course off the street.

I said what do those subjects have to do with JATCC? Not a lot. I never mentioned it in context with SNCO skills. You don't have to do courses to know these things (a little interest in your job, the RAF, and larger Issues will serve you well here).
Unfortunately RAF Policy doesn't agree with you on SNCO first, Controller asecond, otherwise Fast Trackers would not exist and there would be no form of Direct Entry at all. If you are so adamant about SNCO status being more important than Controller status how on earth can you support DE?
Yes I am an SNCO, DE's will be SNCO's it will be my and their DUTY to ensure that we BECOME effective seniors and develop the other skills necessary, but the priority is to learn to control first, just like our Aircrew brethren. They may complete Cranwell first but it would be ridiculous to suggest that the RAF accepted them to be SNCO's, and not to do their jobs. They have to do Cranwell to learn how to behave in accordance with the standards of SNCO status and to be assessed and selected, our previous service should give us that, on completion of IMLC of course. Otherwise IMLC would be at Cranwell and be the same course. Those that remuster will have the bonus of having previous service, AND Cranwell.

Not really, might find a few scopies, admin etc may fancy it, you are making big assumptions. Look at the RN, they do not join up as assistants, they join as every trade under the sun. They then apply to become an HC. Works for them.

I never said it wouldn't work, I have defended it AND I think its a good idea.
All we can do at the moment is make assumptions.

I bow in your presence

I bow before your attempt at a wind up.

Talk about contradiction.So what happens at Cranwell? You have just said exactly what they do at Cranwell.

You cannot see outside of the box, you are not being three dimensional. Not good skills for a SNCO Controller do you think?

You said we do not have an interview, my answer was that although we are not formally interviewed our selection process was akin to an interview and also akin to the Cranwell selection process (albeit with less pinepoles and more real life).
You are complaining based on the fact that currently there is nothing bar IMLC to prepare current JATCC graduates to hold SNCO rank unlike DE's who will have Cranwell.
They have Cranwell to make up for their lack of service. Service life prepares you to hold the Rank surely, otherwise how does anyone get promoted?
What has this discussion got to do with my controlling skills?

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

I bow before your attempt at a wind up.

I give up, there is no reasoning with you. You have taken this as a direct attack on your controlling abilities. As I said, it is the ability to think outside the box.

You said we do not have an interview, my answer was that although we are not formally interviewed our selection process was akin to an interview and also akin to the Cranwell selection process (albeit with less pinepoles and more real life).
You are complaining based on the fact that currently there is nothing bar IMLC to prepare current JATCC graduates to hold SNCO rank unlike DE's who will have Cranwell.
They have Cranwell to make up for their lack of service. Service life prepares you to hold the Rank surely, otherwise how does anyone get promoted?
What has this discussion got to do with my controlling skills?

You said you were interviewed.

 

[FOMz]

Oh FFS. RoJaws, you're just digging a bigger hole each time now. DE's are going to happen and its up to people to make it work. You and yours more than anything. If you don't like the way things are going - walk, otherwise bite the bullet and crack on.

 

[Chaka]

Agreed FOMz, I am bored with this arseholes logic.::/: What is his major malfunction?

I just wished I was his JATCC SNCO last year, I would have made sure this numpty was chopped.

What a chimp.DT_Xtremez_32:

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

Thank fcuk for that, I thought it was me!

 

[ED-SET]

Agreed FOMz, I am bored with this arseholes logic.::/: What is his major malfunction?

I just wished I was his JATCC SNCO last year, I would have made sure this numpty was chopped.

What a chimp.DT_Xtremez_32:

So you would get him chopped even if you thought he had the ability to validate at a unit?

 

[FOMz]

Ed, don't take Chaka's words literally........I did and became a deviant. Why don't you start a thread in fight club about it rather than in the trade forum.

 

[ED-SET]

Ed, don't take Chaka's words literally........I did and became a deviant. Why don't you start a thread in fight club about it rather than in the trade forum.

It would be interesting to get Chaka's answer in the trade forum. Not looking for a fight, looking for an answer.