Fron The Ground Looking UP - Engineering Officers.

[K9 FORNICATOR]

Apologies for the length of this post, if it has been covered before, (undoubtedly it will have at some time) or it is in the wrong area or written in the incorrect font;

There has been much publicity, debate and crew room discussions over the fact that there is a top heavy imbalance of Commissioned Brethren currently in service. Officer tours are in my opinion too short and much reinvention of the wheel gets carried out during their short tours, this is despite the fact current working practices have been developed over decades. As an engineer my views are personal, nevertheless they are borne from nearly 30 years experience working in a multitude of environments. My suggestion is also not from any singular experience, for those that know me should you have a guilty conscience that is something you have to live with; I continue to sleep soundly in my bed. My suggestion could save the Ministry Of Defence millions of pounds, here it is;

Junior Engineering Officers - What exactly is their purpose in this ever shrinking pool of ours? Current climate in my opinion requires an individual at the metaphorical ‘top of the food chain’ to have strength of character, lead from the front and bat off any unjustified hassle that may be heading the unit or detachment’s way! Is that what we get? Quite often in my opinion they have little or no personnel management skills, concentrate too much on remaining ‘popular’ and allow middle management to take all the sh1t! For the majority of their tours they are wetnursed and carried through by their Flight Sergeants anyway.

Get rid off all of them! In place we could have ‘EngWOs’ Warrant Officers with vast engineering and personnel management skills and negate the requirement for an individual to be on standby to wipe a JengOs bottom next time he needs a poo! The possibilities are endless, we could then have SengWOs. The promotion ladder for non commissioned personnel would undoubtedly be alleviated from strangulation. If only!!! In mitigation I had better add that Warrant Officers too can be good or bad by virtue of time served that should make them more suitable.

Alternatively instead of a pool of Engineering Officers fighting over fewer and fewer available engineering tours, thin them out and extend the tour lengths so they can accrue the experience they require to be the effective leaders with the aforementioned traits we so badly need.

 

[Jack Jarvis]

A pointless thread in my opinion.
Sounds like somebody needs a Calpol.
What's wrong? Did one of them tell you to start doing your job?

 

[K9 FORNICATOR]

JengO Perchance?

JengO Perchance?

A pointless thread in my opinion.
Sounds like somebody needs a Calpol.
What's wrong? Did one of them tell you to start doing your job?

Not at all! After discussion with Ming Mong and a few other fellow contributers to this fine site it was deemed worthy of a post and possible intellectual debate which is obviously not within your remit from your post. Unless of course you are a JengO whereupon your potential limit may well have been reached or even excelled by your retort. If I wanted a bunfight I would have posted this in Fight Club. Kindly think on!

 

[MrMasher]

I see your point here, I really do, but to add balance to your questioning:
Some Bengos/Jengos are quite good, even if they only spend 18 months to 2 years in post.
The idea is that they do several tours to pick up engineering management "expertise", so eventually when they hit the front line they arent just wet behind the ears and can be of use. Thats why they get wet nursed through their early tours by Flt Sgts and WO's.
Surely we'd be better off looking at the ranks of Chief, Flt Sgt and WO and asking ourselves why we have 3 ranks in the techie trade structure, where effectively they can all do the same job and depending where you work they often do!

 

[monobrow]

You have a trade Chief, a shift FS and a Sqn WO (usually).

Our old WO tried to disestablish his own post claiming all he did was play solitare. Whilst that may be fact, he did f*ck all for the lads and was that disillusioned that he thought all the chiefs were out to get him at any oppertunity. There will always be a place in the RAF for cantankerous old WO's though. They're usually the guys who know either how to get you out of the brown sticky stuff, or neck deep in it if you cross the line. They run the Sqn essentially, on par with the SEngO only they tend to talk less in bull$hit bingo, swear lots more and are infact about 5 times more scary.

 

[Ex-Bay]

There has been much publicity, debate and crew room discussions over the fact that there is a top heavy imbalance of Commissioned Brethren currently in service. Officer tours are in my opinion too short and much reinvention of the wheel gets carried out during their short tours, this is despite the fact current working practices have been developed over decades. . My suggestion could save the Ministry Of Defence millions of pounds, here it is;

Junior Engineering Officers - What exactly is their purpose in this ever shrinking pool of ours? Current climate in my opinion requires an individual at the metaphorical ‘top of the food chain’ to have strength of character, lead from the front and bat off any unjustified hassle that may be heading the unit or detachment’s way! Is that what we get? Quite often in my opinion they have little or no personnel management skills, concentrate too much on remaining ‘popular’ and allow middle management to take all the sh1t! For the majority of their tours they are wetnursed and carried through by their Flight Sergeants anyway.

But how does the EngO get from J to S if he/she's not sent out to a squadron or wherever to widen his horizons?. Surely it's a case of "on the job training" for them ?. Send the newbie to a grizzled old WO (or other exerienced SNCO) so some of the years of experience can be passed on.

Isn't that how aircraft skills are passed on to newly-emerged trainees?

 

[Realist78]

I see your point here, I really do, but to add balance to your questioning:
Some Bengos/Jengos are quite good, even if they only spend 18 months to 2 years in post.
The idea is that they do several tours to pick up engineering management "expertise", so eventually when they hit the front line they arent just wet behind the ears and can be of use. Thats why they get wet nursed through their early tours by Flt Sgts and WO's.
Surely we'd be better off looking at the ranks of Chief, Flt Sgt and WO and asking ourselves why we have 3 ranks in the techie trade structure, where effectively they can all do the same job and depending where you work they often do!

If you had one bod doing the work of those 3, in most places he/she would be working flat out 24/7!DT_Xtremez_17:

 

[MrMasher]

If you had one bod doing the work of those 3, in most places he/she would be working flat out 24/7!DT_Xtremez_17:

Let me just get me highlighter out a minute!:

Surely we'd be better off looking at the ranks of Chief, Flt Sgt and WO and asking ourselves why we have 3 ranks in the techie trade structure, where effectively they can all do the same job and depending where you work they often do!

 

[K9 FORNICATOR]

I see your point here, I really do, but to add balance to your questioning:
Some Bengos/Jengos are quite good, even if they only spend 18 months to 2 years in post.
The idea is that they do several tours to pick up engineering management "expertise", so eventually when they hit the front line they arent just wet behind the ears and can be of use. Thats why they get wet nursed through their early tours by Flt Sgts and WO's.
Surely we'd be better off looking at the ranks of Chief, Flt Sgt and WO and asking ourselves why we have 3 ranks in the techie trade structure, where effectively they can all do the same job and depending where you work they often do!

Good point! Nevertheless can you clariify and possibly expand on "looking at the ranks of Chief, Flt Sgt and WO?" As it stands it is merely a 'throw away comment!' Non commissioned personnel outnumber commissioned by a ratio of I believe 3 or 4 to 1. My suggestion was to replace Engineering Officers with EngWOs, in this case surely this would justify and strengthen any reasoning behind the retention of the ranks of Chief Tech and Flt Sgt.
If you are implying get rid of the ranks, any reduction of non commissioned ranks would surely stagnate any promotional flow and give greater reason for people to leave. Ask TG4 or TG11 what their interpretation is of losing a step in the promotional ladder. (They lost the rank of Chief Tech a couple of years ago).

 

[MontyPlumbs]

It doesn't matter what kind of logic you try to apply to this situation, the military is still an old boys club run by officers for officers, nothing is going to change.

That's why the RAF has the worst of both worlds - acting like a civvy company in some ways, but being lead by a plethora of inexperienced man-managers who couldn't lead their way out of a wet paper bag.

 

[Swingwinger]

It doesn't matter what kind of logic you try to apply to this situation, the military is still an old boys club run by officers for officers, nothing is going to change.

That's why the RAF has the worst of both worlds - acting like a civvy company in some ways, but being lead by a plethora of inexperienced man-managers who couldn't lead their way out of a wet paper bag.

I agree MP. Things will never change. The officers wont let it. It is true that FS's and WO's SHOULD do the EngO job, because they have the experience, but like we all know it will never happen. I too am sick of EngO's coming in and trying to make a name for themselves whilst waiting for the ink on their 1250 to dry, but thats how it is.

 

[Jack Jarvis]

Montyplumbs and Swingwinger,

Nail - Head!

I'm sure the only outcome of this topic will be to enlighten our younger members of "the way of the world". Offering JEngO slots to WO's is not a new idea. It has been done before and no doubt will be offered again when there's another Junior Officer drought.

K9F, I must have touched a nerve. I hope to read some interesting discussion and you get to find someone who agrees with you.

 

[MrMasher]

Good point! Nevertheless can you clariify and possibly expand on "looking at the ranks of Chief, Flt Sgt and WO?" As it stands it is merely a 'throw away comment!' Non commissioned personnel outnumber commissioned by a ratio of I believe 3 or 4 to 1. My suggestion was to replace Engineering Officers with EngWOs, in this case surely this would justify and strengthen any reasoning behind the retention of the ranks of Chief Tech and Flt Sgt.
If you are implying get rid of the ranks, any reduction of non commissioned ranks would surely stagnate any promotional flow and give greater reason for people to leave. Ask TG4 or TG11 what their interpretation is of losing a step in the promotional ladder. (They lost the rank of Chief Tech a couple of years ago).

For example, my place of work has a chief on each shift and on days we have a Flt Lt and a Flt Sgt. No need for a WO. And to be honest with an Engo on days and a chief on each shift we dont really need the Flt Sgt in my opinion.
Each place will be different obviously, but to me the rank of WO is a waste. Most of them are just paper shufflers unless the boss is away and reds/greens need signing.
A Flt Sgt is perfectly capable of doing the job as is a chief.
The comment about promotion.........well, bin a rank, maybe WO or Flt Sgt and create more posts lower down. More workers and managers are surely welcome rather than more highly paid technically experienced paper shufflers?

 

[K9 FORNICATOR]

Montyplumbs and Swingwinger,

Nail - Head!

I'm sure the only outcome of this topic will be to enlighten our younger members of "the way of the world". Offering JEngO slots to WO's is not a new idea. It has been done before and no doubt will be offered again when there's another Junior Officer drought.

K9F, I must have touched a nerve. I hope to read some interesting discussion and you get to find someone who agrees with you.

The only nerve touching is through ‘quality’ contributions such as the above. If this thread was originally deemed as pointless why bother ‘nuisance’ posting? Especially on a Sunday afternoon. Being in sunnier climes I have limited other options. What's your excuse? With 16 posts in 30 months your quota for this month must be up. No reds or greens to sign? ******

 

[Throatarea]

I think the command/rank structure for aircraft eng trades/branchs is going to be turned on head. This will be with the introduction of LAEs B and C cats for new aircraft like the Airbus tanker and DEFSTAN pt45. So this debate which has some good points needs to be looking what happens in civ air where the mangement structure is a lot flatter.

 

[Tin basher]

Perhaps the problem lies not with who is comissioned and who is not but with the sheer number of links in the engineering chain.
LAC, SAC, Cpl, Sgt, C/T, FS, WO, PO. Flg Off, Flt Lt, Sqn Ldr. A potential 11 links in the chain, (12 if you include J/T). Off which 5 at most are producers and the other 6 manage the process. No civvy company would condone such a structure. Perhaps they would run it more simply such as Technician, chargehand, Foreman, Hangar manager.

 

[Realist78]

For example, my place of work has a chief on each shift and on days we have a Flt Lt and a Flt Sgt. No need for a WO. And to be honest with an Engo on days and a chief on each shift we dont really need the Flt Sgt in my opinion.
Each place will be different obviously, but to me the rank of WO is a waste. Most of them are just paper shufflers unless the boss is away and reds/greens need signing.
A Flt Sgt is perfectly capable of doing the job as is a chief.
The comment about promotion.........well, bin a rank, maybe WO or Flt Sgt and create more posts lower down. More workers and managers are surely welcome rather than more highly paid technically experienced paper shufflers?

If you stay in the mob long enough, I'll wager your opinion will change, especially on the FS/WO front.

 

[MrMasher]

Perhaps the problem lies not with who is comissioned and who is not but with the sheer number of links in the engineering chain.
LAC, SAC, Cpl, Sgt, C/T, FS, WO, PO. Flg Off, Flt Lt, Sqn Ldr. A potential 11 links in the chain, (12 if you include J/T). Off which 5 at most are producers and the other 6 manage the process. No civvy company would condone such a structure. Perhaps they would run it more simply such as Technician, chargehand, Foreman, Hangar manager.

Exactly what I was trying to put across!!DT_Xtremez_30:

If you stay in the mob long enough, I'll wager your opinion will change, especially on the FS/WO front

I doubt I'll get that far. It'll be the younger lads who take 7 years to get their tapes that will be the next generation of FS/WO.
I'll hit the board as an A this year and have 5 boards left until 22 is up. I have a feeling I'll be out at 22 to be honest...........as a Cpl DT_Xtremez_26:

 

[MontyPlumbs]

If you stay in the mob long enough, I'll wager your opinion will change, especially on the FS/WO front.

I think the WO Eng on a squadron is a vital part of the chain, if he looks after his lads/lasses as he should. I believe a good WO deflects a lot of the niff naff and trivia as well as unsustainable demands from the aircrew away from the engineering workforce. He is also the "supreme" authority us oiks can go to if we have problems or believe a work practice is unsafe. I'd rather have a chat with the Wobbly Orange or Fruit Segment than some 22 year old baby orficer with no experience or backbone and who hasn't been to the university of life - 20-30 year WOs and FSs have this kind of experience.

On the flip side, you know if you've fcuked up and you have to go and see the WO - it's usually brown trousers time - the way it should be.

Shame we haven't got more old-style WOs who don't take any **** from the green suited gods.

 

[Realist78]

I think the WO Eng on a squadron is a vital part of the chain, if he looks after his lads/lasses as he should. I believe a good WO deflects a lot of the niff naff and trivia as well as unsustainable demands from the aircrew away from the engineering workforce. He is also the "supreme" authority us oiks can go to if we have problems or believe a work practice is unsafe. I'd rather have a chat with the Wobbly Orange or Fruit Segment than some 22 year old baby orficer with no experience or backbone and who hasn't been to the university of life - 20-30 year WOs and FSs have this kind of experience.

On the flip side, you know if you've fcuked up and you have to go and see the WO - it's usually brown trousers time - the way it should be.

Shame we haven't got more crusty old WOs who don't take any **** from the green suited gods.

IMHO, there's been moves over the last few years to disenfranchise the WOs by clipping their wings a little. I have to say that this has come about by some of the WOs toeing the party line too much. What's the point if you don't believe in it? What are they going to do, sack you? Post you somewhere you don't want to be, OOA etc?DT_Xtremez_17: