Fron The Ground Looking UP - Engineering Officers.

[The Dog's]

But how does the EngO get from J to S if he/she's not sent out to a squadron or wherever to widen his horizons?. Surely it's a case of "on the job training" for them ?. Send the newbie to a grizzled old WO (or other exerienced SNCO) so some of the years of experience can be passed on.

Isn't that how aircraft skills are passed on to newly-emerged trainees?

Ahh, somebody seeing the bigger picture! If you didn't recruit young engineer officers how would you get the senior ones? Recruit them at age 40 as wg cdrs with even less service experience? What about doing away with all commissioned engineers? That would free up career progression. The whole thing could be run, up to chief engineer (most senior EngWO?), by techies with bags of experience . . . perhaps. If not, how are you going to recruit young graduate engineers? Start them as SAC's. What about other professionally qualified entrants such as doctors and dentists?

 

[MrMasher]

Ahh, somebody seeing the bigger picture! If you didn't recruit young engineer officers how would you get the senior ones? Recruit them at age 40 as wg cdrs with even less service experience? What about doing away with all commissioned engineers? That would free up career progression. The whole thing could be run, up to chief engineer (most senior EngWO?), by techies with bags of experience . . . perhaps. If not, how are you going to recruit young graduate engineers? Start them as SAC's. What about other professionally qualified entrants such as doctors and dentists?

Now that makes sense. Nicely put me old dogger!
I like that idea, why restrict it to techies? Do it RAF-wide and bin officers!DT_Xtremez_30:

 

[The Dog's]

Now that makes sense. Nicely put me old dogger!
I like that idea, why restrict it to techies? Do it RAF-wide and bin officers!DT_Xtremez_30:

Mash, I was being sarcastic!DT_Xtremez_15:

 

[BigVern]

A real Wobbly............

A real Wobbly............

I think the WO Eng on a squadron is a vital part of the chain, if he looks after his lads/lasses as he should. I believe a good WO deflects a lot of the niff naff and trivia as well as unsustainable demands from the aircrew away from the engineering workforce. He is also the "supreme" authority us oiks can go to if we have problems or believe a work practice is unsafe. I'd rather have a chat with the Wobbly Orange or Fruit Segment than some 22 year old baby orficer with no experience or backbone and who hasn't been to the university of life - 20-30 year WOs and FSs have this kind of experience.

On the flip side, you know if you've fcuked up and you have to go and see the WO - it's usually brown trousers time - the way it should be.

Shame we haven't got more crusty old WOs who don't take any **** from the green suited gods.

If only, are there any real WOs left?

 

[MontyPlumbs]

If only, are there any real WOs left?

I work for one. So I would say yes. I think there are still a few out there.

I've always believed a good leaders mantra should be "harsh but fair". Example, if you **** up and its blatantly your fault (laziness/negligence etc) then expect no quarter - conversely, if you've done nothing wrong you'd expect your WO (in this example) to back you up to the hilt.

I do agree it seems as though WOs have been bypassed somewhat in the last few years, probably by the officer corps who see WOs as the "little men" who have grown far too big for their boots and have actually got real influence at Squadron level. I'd imagine ex-WOs who take a Commission (mad!) would probably find themselves marginalised by their commissioned bretherin. I would imagine it would be easy to spot an ex-WO Flight Lieutenant! DT_Xtremez_30:

 

[K9 FORNICATOR]

Policy Makers or Engineers?

Policy Makers or Engineers?

Ahh, somebody seeing the bigger picture! If you didn't recruit young engineer officers how would you get the senior ones? Recruit them at age 40 as wg cdrs with even less service experience? What about doing away with all commissioned engineers? That would free up career progression. The whole thing could be run, up to chief engineer (most senior EngWO?), by techies with bags of experience . . . perhaps. If not, how are you going to recruit young graduate engineers? Start them as SAC's. What about other professionally qualified entrants such as doctors and dentists?

I shall undoubtedly be accused of plagiarism as this was not my comment but a fellow Goater. Does an Engineering Degree make you an effective engineer? Personally I think not! The post above whilst radical may have serious undertones; Engineering Officers are decision makers, all the facts are laid out to them by experienced hands on engineers and a decision is made based on the presented facts (often with strong guidance). Those personnel that have aspired to the higher echelons in the engineering world are no longer (were they in the first place?) engineers but policy enforcers and makers. With the limited experience they may have (I know of one - 6 years from IOT to Sqn Ldr,) is it little wonder those of us at the coalface are often left in bewilderment at certain judgement calls. Significantly whittle the commissioned brethren down and lengthen their tours to allow them to accrue the skills they require or replace them with experienced personnel with the engineering and management skills to do the job.

 

[T93]

I shall undoubtedly be accused of plagiarism as this was not my comment but a fellow Goater. Does an Engineering Degree make you an effective engineer? Personally I think not! The post above whilst radical may have serious undertones; Engineering Officers are decision makers, all the facts are laid out to them by experienced hands on engineers and a decision is made based on the presented facts (often with strong guidance). Those personnel that have aspired to the higher echelons in the engineering world are no longer (were they in the first place?) engineers but policy enforcers and makers. With the limited experience they may have (I know of one - 6 years from IOT to Sqn Ldr,) is it little wonder those of us at the coalface are often left in bewilderment at certain judgement calls. Significantly whittle the commissioned brethren down and lengthen their tours to allow them to accrue the skills they require or replace them with experienced personnel with the engineering and management skills to do the job.

********

K9,

That is a very good point.

In the "dogs" statement, The following line stood out to me "other professionally qualified entrants" & thats just it, does that mean they are able, because they are suitably qualified for thier chosen vocation. I think not in all cases.
A degree (whilst I would always recommend others to undertake) is to show to others (and yourself!) that you can study/discuss/think/follow a format. However I do believe a certain time out on the coalface is required before you can say your effective at your job.

Thats the route I took. Worked for meDT_Xtremez_28:

 

[fergo]

I have read this thread with great interest over the last few days.
I have currently got 2 1/2 days and 2 exams left to go of an Engineering Degree (Aeronautical Engineering) before I start IOT and then go onto Engo training.

Over the last few years i have spent time with various Engos, some good some that seemed not so good. There has though been quite big changes to what was EST and i would hope that over the coming years the Bengos of the RAF will be better. Personally, and from what i have seen, i dont think I am stereotypical of someone that want to be an Officer.

As for an Engineering Degree, makes sack all difference. I have done maths with pictures for four and a half years. Most of it i will never ever ever see or use again in my life. Its a means to an end.

As for tour lenghts, it really seems common sense that a guy in a post for 18 months is just getting to grips with things etc before he is moved on. And IMHO it breeds change for change sake as they try in vain to show the superiors they have changed something or "made something better".

At the minute Engos are only recieving short service commissions and that, as far as I am aware, has been the case for a while.

 

[T93]

I have read this thread with great interest over the last few days.
I have currently got 2 1/2 days and 2 exams left to go of an Engineering Degree (Aeronautical Engineering) before I start IOT and then go onto Engo training.

Over the last few years i have spent time with various Engos, some good some that seemed not so good. There has though been quite big changes to what was EST and i would hope that over the coming years the Bengos of the RAF will be better. Personally, and from what i have seen, i dont think I am stereotypical of someone that want to be an Officer.

As for an Engineering Degree, makes sack all difference. I have done maths with pictures for four and a half years. Most of it i will never ever ever see or use again in my life. Its a means to an end.

As for tour lenghts, it really seems common sense that a guy in a post for 18 months is just getting to grips with things etc before he is moved on. And IMHO it breeds change for change sake as they try in vain to show the superiors they have changed something or "made something better".

At the minute Engos are only recieving short service commissions and that, as far as I am aware, has been the case for a while.

******

Fergo,

I agree a Degree (Eng) can make no difference at all, for certain I have in the past been positively discriminated against, due to holding an (Eng) Degree.

I cannot remember the last time anyone looked at my quals, in fact the same goes for my CV...Last three projects were all word of mouth recommendations

Regardless, it is still an achievement, and one that you should be proud of.

Fergo: Wish you well on your remaining exams & congratulations fella.

JL.

 

[Tin basher]

However I do believe a certain time out on the coalface is required before you can say your effective at your job.

Just as an aside many years ago a young Cpl TB and the rest of the hangar guys went on a tour of a working coalmine. (Rossington in Yorkshire) One piece of information sticks in my mind. Regardless of personal qualifications ,degrees, time at mining college etc, unless an individual had 3 years experience of working underground they would not, could not by the rules, be considered for any mangerial post in the engineering side of mining. Whilst recruited as potential managers of the future all had to get down and dirty for a short time. This meant that you knew your boss had literally worked at the coal face and had personal experience of the task in hand. When we were asked if the RAF worked in a similar way the chorus of laughter ended that particular avenue of conversation.