Going to Public House in Uniform?

[Drill Bit]

If your SNCO has made the decision that you could attend then he should back you up as he is your line manager/CoC.

I dont think you or your Snec would have to check this with the staish!!!

If your snec was unsure then he should have possibly gone to the SWO but lets face it if evry line manager couldnt make a decision on their own and have to get it checked everytime then holding the rank is pointless. The whole point of being a leader is to make decisions rightly or wrongly and then if it does go wrong have enough integrity and conviction to argue the point, explain your reasons for making the decision. If it unacceptable take it on the chin apologise and learn from your error.

I have made a number of decisions over the last few years that others have questioned I have explained my decision and only on a couple of occasions have I had to apologise and tbh I would make the same decision again given the same circumstances as I still believe I was right.

Your Snec should stand his ground and if the feckin busy body Wg Cdr Rozzer with no life is still not happy then I would apologise throw him my best salute and then smartly march out.
(then run to his car and stick a potato up the exhaust)DT_Xtremez_42:

Nobody mentioned about checking with the staish; think you're being a little pedantic . The point is that I'd be very suprised if a SNCO right through to Sqn Ldr had the authority to make such a decision. Such decisions regarding the wearing of uniform are left to the discretion of the CO; remember Gp Capt Wittering a few years ago?

And you think an airman saluting in doors, minus his headdress would have helped his situation. I'm being pedantic of course.

 

[penfold93]

Well at least he had the balls to pick you up. I would have to agree with him though, I'd say that it would have to be an appropriate rank within the chain of command; probably your station's CO.

Oh yes you did mention the staishDT_Xtremez_19:

The bit about the snec saluting was in reference to the possible office chat that may occur from the incident not at the time as I think SD said they were all in civvies.

If the staish has already set a uniform outside work policy then thats fine (as in Wittering and I think she was over ruled about if from above anyway)

If there has been no decree then why cant a line manager make a spot decision about a single event. Thats what they are there for.

 

[Drill Bit]

Oh yes you did mention the staishDT_Xtremez_19:

The bit about the snec saluting was in reference to the possible office chat that may occur from the incident not at the time as I think SD said they were all in civvies.

If the staish has already set a uniform outside work policy then thats fine (as in Wittering and I think she was over ruled about if from above anyway)

If there has been no decree then why cant a line manager make a spot decision about a single event. Thats what they are there for.

I did mention the staish I didn't mention checking with the staish; subtle difference. The point I was trying to make is that, I'm not sure if the AP states at what level in the CoC the decision needs to be made.

 

[Joe_90]

I like to give my seniors the option to opt out of a decision. I will usually say something along the lines of "I'm going to do this, unless you have any objections" emails work wonderfully in this situation, therefore I would take the lack of a specific rank in the AP to mean that anyone higher than me can make the decision to wear uniform in the pub. If it then gets sticky I would hope any SNCO would be able to walk out of any subsequent meeting with their head held high, even if the last words they did hear were "in future only _______rank can make this decision".

 

[True Blue Jack]

I did mention the staish I didn't mention checking with the staish; subtle difference. The point I was trying to make is that, I'm not sure if the AP states at what level in the CoC the decision needs to be made.

The AP does not state a minimum rank because the chain of command is exactly that, a chain and the SNCO who authorised the wearing of uniform on this occasion had every right to do so. The regulation exists for no other reason but to stop people popping into their local for a swift half on their way home from work, which would be an inappropriate way in which to represent the RAF don't you think?

I like to give my seniors the option to opt out of a decision. I will usually say something along the lines of "I'm going to do this, unless you have any objections" emails work wonderfully in this situation, therefore I would take the lack of a specific rank in the AP to mean that anyone higher than me can make the decision to wear uniform in the pub. If it then gets sticky I would hope any SNCO would be able to walk out of any subsequent meeting with their head held high, even if the last words they did hear were "in future only _______rank can make this decision".

Exactly correct. And even though in the great game of "paper, scissors, rank" the Wg Cdr beat the SNCO in this case, he was outwith the chain of command and had no jurisdiction.

 

[Drill Bit]

The AP does not state a minimum rank because the chain of command is exactly that, a chain and the SNCO who authorised the wearing of uniform on this occasion had every right to do so. The regulation exists for no other reason but to stop people popping into their local for a swift half on their way home from work, which would be an inappropriate way in which to represent the RAF don't you think?



Exactly correct. And even though in the great game of "paper, scissors, rank" the Wg Cdr beat the SNCO in this case, he was outwith the chain of command and had no jurisdiction.

I take your point but by your rationale, the chain of command ceases at one rank up? I'm not disputing that the AP appears to be a little ambiguous; what I'm saying is that there are decisions that certain ranks within the chain of command are not authorised to make.

I would suggest, although the AP is not explicit, that this is one of those cases.

 

[True Blue Jack]

I take your point but by your rationale, the chain of command ceases at one rank up? I'm not disputing that the AP appears to be a little ambiguous; what I'm saying is that there are decisions that certain ranks within the chain of command are not authorised to make.

I would suggest, although the AP is not explicit, that this is one of those cases.

Nope, by my rationale the chain of command starts at one rank up. One of my bugbears is people coming to me to ask for authority to do something rather than simply saying "I've made this decision, do you agree with it?"; 9 times out of 10 I will go with the decision made by the SME. Too many so-called leaders at all levels are afraid to put their neck on the line and make a decision.

I really think the AP is not ambiguous at all in this instance. If the authority rested with the Staish then the AP would read "except when specifically approved by the Commanding Officer". It doesn't and purposely so.

 

[gemarriott]

The AP does not state a minimum rank because the chain of command is exactly that, a chain and the SNCO who authorised the wearing of uniform on this occasion had every right to do so. The regulation exists for no other reasonbut to stop people popping into their local for a swift half on their way home from work, which would be an inappropriate way in which to represent the RAF don't you think?
.

What a load of condescending Bollox. In the years you have been on here you have posted some drivel but that has to be the ultimate piece of drivel to date.

 

[Drill Bit]

Nope, by my rationale the chain of command starts at one rank up. One of my bugbears is people coming to me to ask for authority to do something rather than simply saying "I've made this decision, do you agree with it?"; 9 times out of 10 I will go with the decision made by the SME. Too many so-called leaders at all levels are afraid to put their neck on the line and make a decision.

I really think the AP is not ambiguous at all in this instance. If the authority rested with the Staish then the AP would read "except when specifically approved by the Commanding Officer". It doesn't and purposely so.

I completely agree with your sentiment but the key detail that I'm failing to get across to you, is the authority to make a decision. I believe that, perhaps as you've mentioned not ambiguous, the AP is incorrect.

There's only one thing worse than making the wrong decision and that's making no decision.

 

[Little Tronk]

Don't qoute me but I think you'll find most stations have a 'policy' that uniform is not to be worn.....blah, blah, blah...by order staish, exceptions can I believe be applied for.

 

[True Blue Jack]

What a load of condescending Bollox. In the years you have been on here you have posted some drivel but that has to be the ultimate piece of drivel to date.

Sorry, I forgot you were in regular contact with the RAF Dress Policy Committee. I hereby grant you authority to wear your uniform to the pub any time you like.

Oh, and I'm not sure your colourful language is appropriate for a public forum - perhaps a moderator could make a decision?

 

[mad_collie]

Sorry, I forgot you were in regular contact with the RAF Dress Policy Committee. I hereby grant you authority to wear your uniform to the pub any time you like.

Oh, and I'm not sure your colourful language is appropriate for a public forum - perhaps a moderator could make a decision?

A moderator has - one appointed by the admins who run the site, not someone who thinks he is.

I've read more profanity in the red tops so it will stay.

 

[Drill Bit]

What a load of condescending Bollox. In the years you have been on here you have posted some drivel but that has to be the ultimate piece of drivel to date.

To be fair; I chose to ignore the part you refer to because, on the odd occasion TBJ, does speak a modicum of sense, and I believe this was one of those times.

 

[True Blue Jack]

I've read more profanity in the red tops so it will stay.

Decision called for, decision made. What could be easier than that? DT_Xtremez_30:

 

[Allflapnofly]

Never had a pubic louse in my uniform......


....and I've had the same spectacles for the last twenty years....

 

[Toffee]

Hello all, I am the OP just using a seperate account I use from home as my Saint Domingo account is linked to my work account.

After getting back to work today, I decided to give my Fg Off a bell and tell him all that had happened, and showed him the AP which proves I was not in the wrong and nor was my SNCO. Although he is only a Fg Off, he is a good guy and I have no doubt he will fight my corner. I also checked with P1 who confirmed neither myself of my SNCO was in the wrong. As a result, I have asked the Fg Off to bring this up with my Wg Cdr who can contact the copper and explain why I was in uniform.

Normally, I would just shrug this off, but as I am completely in the right, having followed the AP to the letter, and I was chastised in such an aggressive manner, I want the Wg Cdr spoken to.

If I am let down by my own chain of command with regards to this, my next stop will be the SWO. I dont think I will though to be honest.

I would just like to add, that in all my time in, I have never been in any trouble and Im not a trouble causer in any way. I just feel that, just because the copper is a Wg Cdr, he is not automatically correct, and his rank does not give him the right to talk to me like a piece of **** in a packed public place.

 

[GD on Wheels]

In that case the Wing Co I was driving one day should have charged me and himself for he suggested we pop into the pub for a pie and a pint!! DT_Xtremez_14:

 

[busby1971]

Tut Tut Tut

Tut Tut Tut

In that case the Wing Co I was driving one day should have charged me and himself for he suggested we pop into the pub for a pie and a pint!! DT_Xtremez_14:

Driving MT and having a pint, have you read MT Orders......DT_Xtremez_32: