Line training, JP "Q" course or important training?

[fat lazy techie]

Right then, I have a question for all aircraft techies out there. Think back to your time on CFST/LTF/ASL/238 Sqn Line. Did you find it an important part of your training or was it just a JP Q course? It would appear that some people at Tossford think it's just the latter. So come on, let me know what you think, and hopefully the tubes that have recently had these thoughts see this thread and takes note. I mean what is the point of a liney with no line training?

Do these people also think that some fitters courses were basically Jag Q courses as well?


Some of you out there will probably know line training better as Gnat line or something of the like.

 

[Wonky Tonka]

LTF when I went through.

Definitely a fundamentally important part of my Mech(T) course.

It was all very well being up in Fulton block for 6 months, learning about how the bits worked on the jets, but until you actually had to stand a few feet from a roaring(?) engine and deal with the thing in a totally live situation, you had no real concept of what you were going to be doing for the next few years.

It scared the sh!t out of one of the guys on my course when he actually came face to face with a JP trundling towards him on the pan.


As for "Q" courses??????? Who the feck honestly thought that 2 wks doing the oils on a JP qualified you on the jet?

If it ain't broke, don't fix it..........thousands of techies can't be wrong.

 

[MontyPlumbs]

"LTF" as I know it is a fantastic training experience that ALL aircraft technicians and mechanics should be exposed to!

I still think sending our Royal Navy Phase 2s to Cosford to do 238 Squadron would be a fantastic idea, especially for those coming to the fixed wing world.

I'd never been that close to a real live jet aircraft before I joined up, I didn't "cack" myself but I was a little nervous the first time we did an engine start!

 

[pie sandwich]

It was CFST for me.

And I fooking loved it, I hated every day stuck in Fulton block, but once I got out onto the flight line down there, I thought I was ace, I had never been that near to a fast jet before and then to be sat inside it taxing around watching the other lads p1ss themselves when it came near was so much fun.

I would have to say it is such an important part of training, more so when the air force seems to be aiming for putting out lineys first tradesmen second.

And putting oil, fuel and gas in a JP is not a Q cse!!

 

[DrunkenMonki]

LTF for me. Was good for getting you past that intial fear of standing in front of a jet. Also sorted out those who just can't follow orders, written or verbal. We had a few 'geniuses' who'd done really well in fulton, but failed 1st time round on LTF as they had feck all ability in the real world.

All went to bays...

 

[spanners]

Can't remember what it was called at Halton, airfield phase I think, but it was a good experience, apart from marshaling the instructor on the bloody push bike with wings on it!
Actually, the best part was getting the bus down to the airfield and not having to march! Plus it meant your course was nearly finished!

 

[rest have risen above me]

There is no substitute for doing the job under controlled conditions. You don't ask a lorry driver to start after just doing the theory.
I went through Cosford a long time ago but even then they followed the training protocol I was taught and have used ever since.

Demonstrate the task
Do the task with the trainee
Let the trainee do the task (over and over til they get it right)

If it's cost they're worried about then why not use CBT systems.

We started with a CBT system. Cycle based training... Snec on a RAF bike,DT_Xtremez_19: cheap and a bit of a laugh as well. Moved onto a Van then finally let loose on some gnats and JPs.

 

[Tin basher]

Can't remember what it was called at Halton, airfield phase I think, but it was a good experience, apart from marshaling the instructor on the bloody push bike with wings on it! Actually, the best part was getting the bus down to the airfield and not having to march! Plus it meant your course was nearly finished!

Totally agree with the above, even the push bike bit was a right grin.

LTF, CFST, whatever this weeks buzz name is remains for me an invaluable part of the training jigsaw. CBT doesn't make trainees produce brown adrenalin like aircraft can.

(Swings lamp) After the "terrors" of marshalling a mighty JP image my shock as a sprog marshalling my first "live " aircraft KC135 tanker (Kansas Air National Guard) in the early misty dawn of a September day.

 

[Dave-exfairy]

I think it was LTF when I went through Cosford. All that noise, the smell of burnt jet fuel, races with the bowser hose, what a time, yes it meant your course was nearly finished, but what a buzz, playing with real jets, what we were there for.

 

[monobrow]

Personally I thought that it was a fantastic insight into acually working on planes. LTF was done straight after HTF where us fairies got to shout "UNSAFE UNDERCARRIAGE" lots and get an insight into fixing planes, and the few weeks at LTF only built on it. Seem to remember though they had a virtual marshalling program thingamy bob which was odd to say the least, but showed some of the lads who wanted Brize / Lyneham how big a VC10 / Tristar / Herc was up close. Seem to remember also that we watched Dr Fod and the Man from LOX down there as well.

As DrunkenMonki said though, on our course was a guy who averaged 95-98% on exams. Went to charge the JP oxy by cross threading the connector ALL THE WAY ON!!! He was re-coursed very very sharpish!

 

[Spurdog]

If and when it all moves to sunny South Wales there won't be any line training as we know it. Metrix apparently want to have an aircraft training school without any aircraft. They seem to think that all our training can be done CBT style. Personally I think we need to teach our boys and girls on live aircraft, the fact that the JP's (and some of the LTF instructors) are antiques makes no real difference.

 

[fat lazy techie]

As was alluded to earlier, we do have a lovely marshalling simulator. It has improved since mono's days of learning into a lovely machine with fairly good graphics. Still doesn't do the job of the mighty JP though as it just doesn't make you totally aware of the consequences if things go wrong, good laugh though.

I'm glad to see all who have posted see the line as a vital phase of training. Now those naysayers who think the line to be utterly useless and just a JP Q course should grow some and tell us why they think this. It's easy to hide behind an anonymous poll now isn't it?

 

[Dave-exfairy]

Personally I thought that it was a fantastic insight into acually working on planes. LTF was done straight after HTF where us fairies got to shout "UNSAFE UNDERCARRIAGE" lots and get an insight into fixing planes, and the few weeks at LTF only built on it.

Fcuk me, forgot about that, bringing it all back now, early stacks esp on Fri and taking the p!ss out of the UT PTI's as they ran past us on our way home for the weekend.

 

[I Look Like Kevin Costner]

Can't remember what it was called at Halton, airfield phase I think, but it was a good experience, apart from marshaling the instructor on the bloody push bike with wings on it!
Actually, the best part was getting the bus down to the airfield and not having to march! Plus it meant your course was nearly finished!

T 26 was the phase. It was the only time the course I was on really gelled..

Instructor was Robert Palmer's (the singer) Brother.

Things were looking up. However, it never dawned then that it would another 9 years before I marshalled a jet again in anger!!

 

[Albert Park]

Instructor was Robert Palmer's (the singer) Brother.

Off Topic He was our Instructor for Airfields on my Fitter's course - Malcolm Palmer.

 

[mightyhunter]

If and when it all moves to sunny South Wales there won't be any line training as we know it. Metrix apparently want to have an aircraft training school without any aircraft. They seem to think that all our training can be done CBT style. Personally I think we need to teach our boys and girls on live aircraft, the fact that the JP's (and some of the LTF instructors) are antiques makes no real difference.

Off TopicFLT, think he's talking about you!!DT_Xtremez_19:
i think it's pish that it's been paired down to a 15-day part of training. got give the little buggers a taste of marshalling/refuelling/servicing live jets before they're let loose.
oh, and it was CFST when i were youth.

 

[spanners]

T 26 was the phase. It was the only time the course I was on really gelled..

Instructor was Robert Palmer's (the singer) Brother.

Things were looking up. However, it never dawned then that it would another 9 years before I marshalled a jet again in anger!!

T26, that was it!
Cheers

 

[propersplitbrainme]

Pfft, a typical example of how the training system can never win.
If we use a particular aircraft as a platform for a phase of training some joker calls it a Q course for that aircraft. The rigger to sooty MSAT course is often labelled a Jag/Adour and/or Tornado/RB199 Q course; an accusation that is so far from the truth it is pitiful.
If we don't use an aircraft but use a part task trainer or an aircraft emulator such as genfly someone else will say that the training is worthless.
If we don't use anything at all except CBT we'll be called the Metrix Consortium.

 

[fat lazy techie]

PSBM

Have you cast your vote yet? I know where you are coming from with regards to people thinking we are just doing Q courses for said aircraft, that's why I started this thread. CBT just can't replicate the real thing no matter how much budget gets wasted/spent on it. Oh and when do the genfly Q courses start as if Metrix get their way that's about as close to arcraft trainees will get.

 

[pie sandwich]

MH

Spurdog is talking about Line Training Flight