Max number of LIM/ADF entries?

[Issac Hunt]

Is there a defined limit to the number of LIM+ADF entries an aircraft can have?

We have several here that are in 3 figures!

I looked through the JAP but couldn't find a definitive answer.

 

[MingMong]

As far as I am aware, there is no limit.

If you look at some of our older/larger aircraft, there could be ADFs for every single scratch and minor dent on the paintwork (dependant on limts) every single ripped seat or piece of missing trim on a passenger carrier. Add the results of doing a fuel map on a sieve (VC10) and they could soon add up.

My understanding is that as long as the aircraft is considered safe, and the effect of one Lim/ADF doesn't impact another rendering it unsafe then there is no limit.

 

[MrMasher]

Ming Mong is correct. There isn't a limit however less entries are easier to manage!!
If you are into 3 figures it may be worth carrying out a strict review ensuring that they are all ADFs, could borderline ones be transferred to the Acceptable Deferred Husbandry Log?

 

[rest have risen above me]

The mighty Hunter will bow out with it's 700 contained in 2 folders due to the amount of ADFs and husbandry entries.

 

[Sospan]

Or get working some overtime to get them cleared! DT_Xtremez_42:

 

[Weebl]

Or get working some overtime to get them cleared! DT_Xtremez_42:

How do you work overtime when the Sqn is already manned 24/7/365 and the main reason stuff gets Limmed and ADF'd is because the jet is needed for a sortie so you don't have time to fix it, or the spare is not available?

Lots of stuff also exists in the logs that will never be fixed because it does not need to be. Minor dents and rubs, systems that are not 100% but are not used anyway etc. They have to be recorded to keep everything legal, nothing will be done about them though apart from a review once in a blue moon.

 

[Stevienics]

Doesn't anyone ever do pre-major surveys and majors any more?

 

[Weebl]

Doesn't anyone ever do pre-major surveys and majors any more?

Our Majors (and Minors, in fact all scheduled maint apart from Flexi's which we do) are done by civilian contractor and they don't do anything they are not contracted and paid to do, and sometimes they fcuk that up as well.

Still, it saves money.

 

[Rigga]

The worrying thing about this thread is the extent to which these aircraft, their safety systems and their performance is affected.

I assume there is some form of periodic check in which someone takes 'responsibility' for allowing so many non-compliances on each aircraft?

Sadly, I also assume that no responsibility is taken - it's just "penned off" as too difficult to do for now - even if the aircraft are not on real ops (in UK)

I know that one airline I worked in battled for two years to get an average of 2 deferred defects per month over a 35-aircraft fleet. And it was quite some battle, but it really helped with getting to know the aircraft and the people working them.

However, we had an MEL to help - not just some guy guessing he could do without some system or other for however long - and then extending it again and again! (I've been there, and done that too.)

It's VERY easy to let things mount up and then blame the lack of money for it. (seen that one too)


As Boeing say: "A safe flight is no accident".

 

[MrMasher]

According to the JAP and the 100B-01 an Engo is to carry out a F700 check every 28 days. Part of that check includes looking at the ADFs and LIMs.

Have a look in the 100B-01. There is a minimum required template for the checks.

 

[Spearmint]

I remember having that review team coming down to work after the Haddon-Cave Enquiry into XV230. They took one particular 700 and went through the Aircraft like a dose of salts.

All of a sudden the LIM, ADF and Husbandry log virtually quadrupled over night and we weren't the worst find for the team.

Although one or two entries where straight away, null and void as even though they where advised to not snag a leak (Due to the fact that the Brake Accumulator was cannibalized so the leak wouldn't exist if it was there) they still did.

 

[MrMasher]

I remember having that review team coming down to work after the Haddon-Cave Enquiry into XV230. They took one particular 700 and went through the Aircraft like a dose of salts.

All of a sudden the LIM, ADF and Husbandry log virtually quadrupled over night and we weren't the worst find for the team.

Although one or two entries where straight away, null and void as even though they where advised to not snag a leak (Due to the fact that the Brake Accumulator was cannibalized so the leak wouldn't exist if it was there) they still did.

And from that came ALTI 02-09!

 

[s1mtech]

Yes it has been an interesting 2 years for the mighty hunter, all those RTI's followed by the mass of ADF's and husbandry logs that had to be written and checked every 30 days.

we have certainly 'Lived the Dream' lately.



Still makes me laff that we know got 2 F700 bolted together just for the extra lims/adfs

 

[I Look Like Kevin Costner]

The worrying thing about this thread is the extent to which these aircraft, their safety systems and their performance is affected.

I assume there is some form of periodic check in which someone takes 'responsibility' for allowing so many non-compliances on each aircraft?

Sadly, I also assume that no responsibility is taken - it's just "penned off" as too difficult to do for now - even if the aircraft are not on real ops (in UK)

I know that one airline I worked in battled for two years to get an average of 2 deferred defects per month over a 35-aircraft fleet. And it was quite some battle, but it really helped with getting to know the aircraft and the people working them.

However, we had an MEL to help - not just some guy guessing he could do without some system or other for however long - and then extending it again and again! (I've been there, and done that too.)

It's VERY easy to let things mount up and then blame the lack of money for it. (seen that one too)


As Boeing say: "A safe flight is no accident".

Rigga, you know that the ADFs in the F700 are used to record everything that is non compliant including the smallest dent and scratch (that on something like a Tristar or Nimrod can make up a lot of 6 entry sheets). Operators have dent and buckle charts for that in the civvy street.

I know one operator who almost had its small freighter fleet grounded due to the incompleteness of such records. Once they were completed (by the keenest D&B spotter on the planet), one aircraft had over 400 entries and the average wasn't much lower! The grass isn't always greener on the other side!

A few lims on every fleet will be role equipment related (because of the nature of the beasts the RAF operate). These will usually have time limits as dicated from the relevant IPT via policy documentation. True, I've seen growbags try and snag things because the RAF doesn't have a MEL policy that includes marking systems as inoperative in the cockpit, but the Reds and Greens are checked by Squadron Management on a minimum of a monthly basis (when operations and location allows) and all will have a hard backstop date for review. I have in the past however drafted many an ADF for "EngO F700 check not carried out!" They do get done when the aircraft RTBs.

 

[Rigga]

Hi ILLKC,

Long time no speak, hope the Job's okay?

Thanks for reminding me about 700's - as a sheddie in my later years I didnt see any EngO Checks as the cabs rolled out - I just rebuilt a new 700 at each minor/major.

Even then I was becoming horrified at the amount we left in there.

I quoted an average of DDL entries at First Choice - one of my old haunts - Deferrred Defects, not D&B Entries which tended to remain until a C/D check.

I had forgotten that RAF Types have so much Role Equipment! - thanks for that - Do they still have STF's too? I remember filling sheets of those out.

Gone into old fogey mode...

 

[ROTORHEAD]

Reds & Greens

Reds & Greens

I used to raise all the MWO's on the VAMPX system on VC10 Majors circa 93-95, Each '10' had 30 plus pages of both reds and greens on reciept at Saints. (Probably didn't have many less at the end!)

 

[meagain]

Heard a rumour today that the new LITS functionality will need every lim and adf reviewing to get it onto the system, I'm no great user of LITS, but I guess thats going to be a lot of work for someone. which fleet will get hit hardest?

 

[I Look Like Kevin Costner]

Heard a rumour today that the new LITS functionality will need every lim and adf reviewing to get it onto the system, I'm no great user of LITS, but I guess thats going to be a lot of work for someone. which fleet will get hit hardest?

What you mean is that Lims and ADFs are now going to be tracked on the short forecast now? Makes the rects controller job a little easier!

 

[Don Key]

What you mean is that Lims and ADFs are now going to be tracked on the short forecast now? Makes the rects controller job a little easier!

Yes well if the RAF hadn't wasted all the money they spent on LITS, they could have had WRAM (as used by the RN and other helicopters) which has ALLWAYS had Lims and ADFs on the forecast reports. It is one thing the "senior service" got right. It cost them next to nothing and worked like it should from day one.

 

[Rigga]

The only trouble with WRAM is that it was built 20 years behind LITS - and yes, even as a civvie, I do know what WRAM is - whilst looking for a new system I found that a mate of mine negotiated the sale of WRAM to MOD! An ex-Sgt Rigger Appo - he now flies around UK in his own plane.