Don't forget the Selby Rail Crash where a landrover left the motorway and collided with a 125 train - many killed.
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Don't forget the Selby Rail Crash where a landrover left the motorway and collided with a 125 train - many killed.
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True.
But for every one incident with tiredness as the cause you could possibly find several that have mobile phone usage / drink / drugs / changing radio channel etc etc that are the cause.
It seems to me that the rules are the cheap option !!
It wouldn't be difficult to have drivers on zero hour contracts readily available to take people home.
Thanks for the replies everyone. It's standard practice for my unit (they book it during clearing) and I think most of Cyprus to just get us one way hire now via europcar. I think I'm just going to pay myself so I can have it the day of arrival so I can be with my wife and child a whole 15hrs earlier. Again thank you all for your replies.
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It's probably cheaper and more flexible to contractorise and outsource all civil service employed MT drivers on a regional level........
..............watch this space >> "Hades 2"
The video put up by FOMz poses a few interesting points. For a start there is no such thing as Crown Immunity any more. If a service driver in a service funded vehicle causes a serious accident, you can bet your arse they and their MTO will end up in court. Secondly several searches on Google and so on, do not find anything about this incident. Strange.
unruly1986
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HAdnt he been up all night watching porn/chatting up women on dating sites?
Like I said to OP - get a decent nights kip.
bigtrev952
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Selby driver was a Gary hart who had been up all day chatting on his phone to a lady he met on the internet, then fell asleep and went down the embankment at great Heck, 6 killed 44 injured at the end of it all.
the law changed in its wake requiring vehicles and trailers with a maximum authorised mass over 3.5 ton to keep records by means of a tachograph.
round about the same time the raf reviewed shift patterns for folks finishing long duties and driving home as I think it was about 20 where lost in the one year falling asleep behind the wheel on the way home, one was a chef who was a good mate who was only going home from honington to thetford at the time and came of the road at barnham bends.
some of the rules are good in this respect, I can remember regiment squadrons doing direct drives to tain range doing exercises and coming back without sleep that was complete madness, it was good that option was removed from there commanders hands. Plus losing a rapier tracking head on route and not knowing where didn't help either !
i think it's more common sense to do it on a case by case basis, flight back from the Falklands if you can't be anything but fecked, you need picking up or a kip before you drive and the traffic seems a lot quicker than the 30mph the previous six months have been.
circumstance should be the rule !
the law changed in its wake requiring vehicles and trailers with a maximum authorised mass over 3.5 ton to keep records by means of a tachograph.
round about the same time the raf reviewed shift patterns for folks finishing long duties and driving home as I think it was about 20 where lost in the one year falling asleep behind the wheel on the way home, one was a chef who was a good mate who was only going home from honington to thetford at the time and came of the road at barnham bends.
some of the rules are good in this respect, I can remember regiment squadrons doing direct drives to tain range doing exercises and coming back without sleep that was complete madness, it was good that option was removed from there commanders hands. Plus losing a rapier tracking head on route and not knowing where didn't help either !
i think it's more common sense to do it on a case by case basis, flight back from the Falklands if you can't be anything but fecked, you need picking up or a kip before you drive and the traffic seems a lot quicker than the 30mph the previous six months have been.
circumstance should be the rule !
rocket scientist
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but they'll happily let you work on an aircraft for hours on end
Six years now since I was commuting up and down the A1 with a weeks worth of shirts hanging in the back of my car. I travelled on a Sunday evening, allowing me to have a nightcap in the bar before getting a full nights sleep. However, there were plenty of "early birds" leaving home at dark o clock and attempting to put in a satisfactory days work. Is this practice still regarded as acceptable?
unruly1986
Sergeant
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Still goes on. Until last year I was up at 0430 on a Monday, 180 mile drive, shower shave and into work. Made sure I was in bed for 8/9 Sunday night mind. Knew/know of plenty others that do it.
Now have a 'commute' of 240 so it's Sunday nights for now.
With the abolition of SFA and the push to own our own properties I can see this becoming the norm within 10 years.
rocket scientist
Sergeant
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Just to add to the gist of this thread -
I returned from the Scottish isles yesterday from a few days duty. I woke yesterday morning at around 0730 but my flight wasn't until 1630. When I arrived at my destination airport at 1730, I still had a 8-9 hour journey home in a hire car (effectively MT, so same rules apply) and eventually arrived home at around midnight.
As my duty effectively started at 1530 when I left the accommodation to catch my flight, I was within driving hours but the fact is, I had still been awake and active since 0730, just as I would have been if I had been in work sitting at a desk, possibly doing less than I actually did out of work.
I returned from the Scottish isles yesterday from a few days duty. I woke yesterday morning at around 0730 but my flight wasn't until 1630. When I arrived at my destination airport at 1730, I still had a 8-9 hour journey home in a hire car (effectively MT, so same rules apply) and eventually arrived home at around midnight.
As my duty effectively started at 1530 when I left the accommodation to catch my flight, I was within driving hours but the fact is, I had still been awake and active since 0730, just as I would have been if I had been in work sitting at a desk, possibly doing less than I actually did out of work.
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Guys and Gals
At lot of work was done on this by a colleague of mine with regards to fatigue and driving hrs especially after flying.
From a physiological perspective 1 hr in the air equates to about 2 hrs on the grd especially with regards to oxygen saturation and altitude so a 5 hr flt from Cyprus is close to 10 hrs on the grd regardless of activity.
The other issue with driving is insurance so whether you are in a mil vehicle or your own if you have an accident and the insurance question how long you have been up/driving then if they see it as excessive it will invalidate your insurance.
At lot of work was done on this by a colleague of mine with regards to fatigue and driving hrs especially after flying.
From a physiological perspective 1 hr in the air equates to about 2 hrs on the grd especially with regards to oxygen saturation and altitude so a 5 hr flt from Cyprus is close to 10 hrs on the grd regardless of activity.
The other issue with driving is insurance so whether you are in a mil vehicle or your own if you have an accident and the insurance question how long you have been up/driving then if they see it as excessive it will invalidate your insurance.
Penfold,
A sensible well founded response mate. The rules are there to protect the MoD, there is no doubt about that. But to some extent they are to protect the individuals. Yes can flaunt them if you want but the consequences are yours to take and they won't back you!!
There are rules in place for working on aircraft now to ensure the risk is held at the correct level, again you can flaunt them but who will be the one in the ****e if anything goes wrong? Same as aircrew have their flying hours and rest rules for a reason.
The MoD has taken a lot of flack over the years both in and out of court, think now the individual will start to take some it if they knowingly break the rules!!
I'm ready for incoming!!
Old Wobbly
LAC
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Penfold/Dazzy, support everything you say. It s easy to think you're better than the rest and you can hack the late, long drive after a flight or long shift. I learned my lesson and lived! Some three years ago after a normal shift, I set off to visit my terminally ill and comatose dad who was in his last hours of life. I stayed with him until late into the night before leaving Shrewsbury hospital and heading for the M54. Some 30 minutes later as the rumble strips on the motorway awoke me, I hit the brakes and pulled up on the hard shoulder. Coming to my senses, I realised I hadn't a clue where I was and had no recollection of joining the motorway. Indeed, as I sat there I wasn't sure if I had taken a wrong turn and headed into Wales. To say it was sobering is a massive understatement. I could easily have become an "ex" Old Wobbly and the inquest,accident investigation would have found no cause!! What really dawned and frightened me was that I could have ended someone else's life with my inconsideration and stupidity.
rocket scientist
Sergeant
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Where? In MAA RA's? Are they actually law or just guidelines?
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Guidelines and constant assessment of the 4 worlds - though obviously if they become rules, the law of "authorised concessions" trumps them
(Christmas cynicism there)
(Christmas cynicism there)
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Thankfully at our place of work there is to be no Vitals work past midnight (Seats etc), tools in by 0100 and out of the door by 0200. Anything past that and the Duty Eng gets a nice one way chat with the DDH as what happened recently.
It's a DIN that was issued some time ago (don't have the number as no access to Dii) stating the MoD's policy on working time directive and the fact that we are still required to abide by a 48 hour week (averaged over 17 weeks). Max 6 days working without at least 24 hour rest period. Yes there are exceptions, but as already stated these have to be authorised at the correct level (and during Ops). Like others have said they are utilising them, and these are being used at my location. They have also been scrutinised very closely during investigations. Therefore, if required it is enforceable by HSE.... but as I said with caveats for the MoD!
Our shifts and fatigue management are based round them and to break them requires S EngO authority to exceed hours once in a week, and anything more OC Sqn.