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New AT at Brize

Weebl

Flight Sergeant
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Not really, unlike your typical RAF squadron civvy maintenance organisations don't have the luxury of an abundance of manpower. At my place of work we look after 20 company and third party based aeroplanes with a total strength of 40 Engineers (10 per shift). Were not talking a single aircraft type either, you are looking at 6 different types with multiple engine variants. A typical peak summer season day can see 70 plus movements in a 12 hour period and you’ll handle more flights in a week than 216 Sqn would in an entire year.

When were you last in? The AT Squadrons do not have an 'abundance' of manpower. Yes, we have more bodies than you have, but then I expect you can get spares, and won't desperately smash 2 other jets up to get a serviceable item creating another 2 headaches that will be solved by smashing yet another jet up to find spares because it is the weekend and our spares system just does not work then (or if it is dark) Our aircraft are old and knackered and need a lot of attention, I would love to see your 40 blokes run 216 for a year and produce the output we do, with the resources we have.

If you genuinely handle more movements in a week than 216 does in a year (bearing in mind I know how many movements 216 do in a year) then you must be a very busy boy, and obviously posted this on your iPhone while sprinting from an engine change to a see in, because otherwise you would not have had time to sit in front of a computer.
 
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When were you last in? The AT Squadrons do not have an 'abundance' of manpower. Yes, we have more bodies than you have, but then I expect you can get spares, and won't desperately smash 2 other jets up to get a serviceable item creating another 2 headaches that will be solved by smashing yet another jet up to find spares because it is the weekend and our spares system just does not work then (or if it is dark) Our aircraft are old and knackered and need a lot of attention, I would love to see your 40 blokes run 216 for a year and produce the output we do, with the resources we have.

If you genuinely handle more movements in a week than 216 does in a year (bearing in mind I know how many movements 216 do in a year) then you must be a very busy boy, and obviously posted this on your iPhone while sprinting from an engine change to a see in, because otherwise you would not have had time to sit in front of a computer.

I wasn’t trying to imply you’ve got it easy Weebl. I know the problems you guys face, particularly with spares as I’ve experienced it first hand. I’m simply stating that the two operations (military and civil) are completely different and the pace of life and working practices vary greatly. The overriding factor in the civil world is cost and operators will always strive to do the most with the least. For example, we don’t have a separate little office full of GE equivalents dedicated solely to fly with the aircraft, it wouldn’t make financial sense. If you need somebody to do a flying spanner job on a particular flight then a licensed guy is simply pulled of shift. Likewise we don't have guys in charge of trade desks dishing out work. Having a pool of mechanics to allocate tasks to would be a luxury. Pilots are also qualified to carry out pre-flight inspections (B/F’s), refuels and engine oil replenishments downroute. If things go wrong then an Engineer is flown out to recover the aircraft as and when required. Often these guys will have already worked most of their shift but they will pull out all of the stops to get the aircraft back to main base.

What is a typical 12 hour shift like on 216 these days? How many movements, AOG's etc? How long do you get for a turnround between flights? I'm genuinely interested and admit I may be out of touch but I didn't leave that long ago. We also operate older aircraft that are more maintenance dependent than some of the more modern types in the fleet. Believe it or not, some of these are 25 years old and are approaching 90,000 flying hours. We also have spares issues and cannibalisation is not an uncommon practice. Part of the reason why the TriStar’s are so knackered is the fact that they have never been utilised as Lockheed intended. If the were operated as such then they would have been scrapped years ago. The highest time C2 only had 45,000 odd hours on it when I left in 2005, not a lot of flying for a machine of 1979 vintage. No aeroplane likes sitting around on the ground for days on end . A modern A320 is testament to that, turn it off and you get all sorts of problems. Incidentally, Delta airlines successfully operated the L1011 for 28 years and it gave relatively trouble free service. The only reason they got shot of it was due to its inability to compete with the more modern fuel efficient aircraft. Granted they had the spares but then again so could the RAF if they just brought up all the remaining parts and stored them at Brize. There was nothing more frustrating to be told by the stackers that you had a 4 day lead time on a component because it had to go to panel in the IPT where some clown would do his best to source the cheapest possible item from the desert.

As for being a busy boy, you bet ya. Turning up at the start of a dayshift shift and hitting the ground running is a daily occurrence. Rushing around with your arse on fire from aircraft to aircraft because you are one of only a handful of certifiers on shift trying to wade through tech log after tech log full of snags on 1 hour turnrounds whilst supervising the refuels and doing the pre-flight inspections. Oh, and you've got minutes to prioritise, come up with solutions and make crucial airworthiness decisions before you release the aircraft. If you've made a decision to hold the passengers from boarding you better be able to justify it, delays equal missed departure slots. Airlines do not like delays, they cost money. As for nights, well there is nothing like walking in at 1900 to an AOG aircraft that was due to take 360 punters on their family holidays to Greece 6 hours ago because the spares haven't arrived. Now the pressure is on you to get it serviceable before the crew go out of hours and the airline have to cough up thousands of pounds to put the passengers up in hotels overnight. Once you've fixed that then there are a couple of turnrounds to take care of and a few daily checks on night stoppers to complete before your main aeroplane drops in at midnight. A nice old "A" check and for good measure there is a starter to change and borescope inspection on the number 2 engine. That's ok though, the shift leader is going to give me a load of men. Wrong, "you can have one mechanic and I'll try and get another to you when I can" he replies. Not to worry, it's on a 0500 departure so we've got plenty of time, good job I've only got a couple of hours worth of paperwork to sign off before I issue the CRS to release the aircraft. You finally sit down for a proper cup of tea and put your feet up for 30 minutes to unwind before the end of shift and you get called out to a B767 (because you are the only licensed guy on shift approved on type, the other two are on leave) that's just pushed back and now blocking the centre line – he cannot start his right engine. If I’m lucky, I might just get chance to play with my iPhone on the drive home or unwind in front of my computer for an hour at 2 am to post on E-Goat after getting back from a 19 hour day recovering a U/S aircraft downroute.

Whose engines will it have? RR Trent 700 by any chance?

The best and preferred engine choice on the A330 - Trent 772B. :PDT_Xtremez_30:
 
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meagain

LAC
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But how do you find time for four sessions of PT a week, mess meetings, secondary duties, Force Development jollies, etc? or do you just find working for the whole shift manages to get the job done?
 

duffman

Flight Sergeant
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Shortcuts that have been possibly the norm in military practice just aren't tolerated in the civvy world.

As for the rules concerning the little Waddo project and Air Tanker, as far as the engineering requirements are concerned, both come under EC reg 2042/2003 for continued airworthiness.. It is exactly the same for both!

I meant the criteria for selecting the personnel may well change depending on such things as did they get the criteria at waddo right the first time etc. The bit about shortcuts, you are ex-raf and no doubt on ops so you know the score but it will be hard to see corners not being cut if they need to generate a/c. In a bad scenerio a few bad headlines of squaddies stuck in afghan and things will change. I know little of the rules and regs of the CAA, but we all know how the raf works and it's role. It will interesting to see how the civvy/RAF idea works on ops.
 

duffman

Flight Sergeant
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Not really, unlike your typical RAF squadron civvy maintenance organisations don't have the luxury of an abundance of manpower.

Comparing apples and oranges there DH. Your ex-raf? You'll remember all the diversions, military and civvy a/c and organisations are set up and run so differently you can't really compare.
 

Talk Wrench

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Comparing apples and oranges there DH. Your ex-raf? You'll remember all the diversions, military and civvy a/c and organisations are set up and run so differently you can't really compare.

I (sort of )get you there Duffman because you are correct. But the fact is and I will side with DH on this, is that these shiney new aircraft will be owned by a PROFIT MAKING organisation who only make money when the aircraft are flying.

In essence, the modus operandi is....... Minimum manpower. Maximum flying hours, with engineering carried out by suitably qualified and authorised staff.

And you negate your statement with your own words. The operation will be civvy run to maximise the profits of the shareholders and not for the pride of being in the RAF Fleet.

I could go on but I've been to a beercall ( oktober fest is ramping up):PDT_Xtremez_30:

TW
 
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I couldn't agree more duffman but I still maintain that that there is bad utilisation of manpower in the RAF on a typical squadron.

As for cutting corners on ops, we've all done it. It is called risk management and you do what you can to get the job done. However, FSTA will be a totally different ball game. For starters the military will not be self regulating airworthiness, it will be an independent body (the CAA). In the civil world if you do not conform to set standards or violate the rules they can pull your AOC (Air Operators Certificate). No AOC = grounded aeroplanes, simple as that.
 

duffman

Flight Sergeant
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I couldn't agree more duffman but I still maintain that that there is bad utilisation of manpower in the RAF on a typical squadron.

As for cutting corners on ops, we've all done it. It is called risk management and you do what you can to get the job done. However, FSTA will be a totally different ball game. For starters the military will not be self regulating airworthiness, it will be an independent body (the CAA). In the civil world if you do not conform to set standards or violate the rules they can pull your AOC (Air Operators Certificate). No AOC = grounded aeroplanes, simple as that.

I don't really want to start treading on toes and making arguements for the sake, but you really think if corners were cut as now on ops the caa would effectivly ground the RAF's AT? They could but I really can't see it. I guess I just have this thought of a/c grounded at brize with cargo/pax needing to go to afghan.

How bad and for how long do civvy companies have to be for the caa to ground them? Does it happen all the time?
 
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duffman

Flight Sergeant
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The operation will be civvy run to maximise the profits of the shareholders and not for the pride of being in the RAF Fleet.



TW

Although the whole fleet is covered by Air Tanker, some will be available at all times to the RAF (pax version, I think). It will be the cargo version that are leased out.
 
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Weebl

Flight Sergeant
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I couldn't agree more duffman but I still maintain that that there is bad utilisation of manpower in the RAF on a typical squadron.

Of course their is, we spend half our time running round looking for different numbers for the suppliers, doing collects because they are too busy, sitting in front of computers putting claims in for £1.24 and having the computer make us take the receipt for auditing, Changing wheels on the tractors because MT are too busy, reporting vehicles U/S and being told we need to clean the engine bay to help their fault diagnosis because they did not want to get dirty etc etc etc. If you were in then I am sure you remember all this and more.

If you left the Sqn in 2005 then the manpower on shift, available to fix aircraft is approximately half now than what it was then. And a proportion of that half are AMM's who are qualified for sweet FA. People still think like you however and we are still seen as a bottomless pit of manpower available to assist in every task that comes the stations way.

Sorry for my bite at your post above but it does grip me a bit when people say we are swimming in manpower and have very little to do. It is simply not true.


I don't really want to start treading on toes and making arguements for the sake, but you really think if corners were cut as now on ops the caa would effectivly ground the RAF's AT?
It is not about cutting corners, it is about working to a different rulebook, and in this I agree 100% with Dirty Harry. Not that the RAF's fleet would get grounded in a worst case scenario however, they would simply pull the jets on to the Military Register and run them under RAF rules. They would then not be allowed to fly anything other than military taskings and I imagine the financial penalties will be horrendous.
 

duffman

Flight Sergeant
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Not that the RAF's fleet would get grounded in a worst case scenario however, they would simply pull the jets on to the Military Register and run them under RAF rules. They would then not be allowed to fly anything other than military taskings and I imagine the financial penalties will be horrendous.

Thanks for that, I did wonder what the get out/worst case/war etc clause was. Who makes that decision?
 

I Look Like Kevin Costner

Grand Prix fanatic..
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Comparing apples and oranges there DH. Your ex-raf? You'll remember all the diversions, military and civvy a/c and organisations are set up and run so differently you can't really compare.

However Civvy line stations and MRO's don't have people sitting about in a tea bar at all hours. :PDT_Xtremez_42:

If a line station or an MRO needs an AOG spare (D State to the RAF), it will not wait for a supply organisation to take 4 days to get it to them. a taxi/courier will be paid to get that item to them ASAP. If another operator has the part nearby, they will purchase it, not having to wait for an IPT to authorise it after a weekend. No doubts Air Tanker will be requested by the customer (RAF) that its military personnel are required for other duties, but its was seen at Marham that RAF personnel were taken out of the duties loop when generation of CMU aircraft was required..

DH, fancy becoming a connie SNEC then??LOL
 

I Look Like Kevin Costner

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Of course their is, we spend half our time running round looking for different numbers for the suppliers, doing collects because they are too busy, sitting in front of computers putting claims in for £1.24 and having the computer make us take the receipt for auditing, Changing wheels on the tractors because MT are too busy, reporting vehicles U/S and being told we need to clean the engine bay to help their fault diagnosis because they did not want to get dirty etc etc etc. If you were in then I am sure you remember all this and more.

Fortunately in civvy street, JPA doesn't exist. As for spares in the RAF, the proceedures that supply squadron bosses put in as barriers for techies to demand spares that falls off of USAS are criminal IMHO. Airtanker will deal in part numbers for all their spares, I can assure you. I must admit that some civvy GSE you see in the outside world would scare the living daylights of you (amazingly some is IRR Green and I've seen some with inventory stickers that I put on the things years ago!LOL

If you left the Sqn in 2005 then the manpower on shift, available to fix aircraft is approximately half now than what it was then. And a proportion of that half are AMM's who are qualified for sweet FA. People still think like you however and we are still seen as a bottomless pit of manpower available to assist in every task that comes the stations way.

Proving that bringing back FLMs was not such a good idea, as was proven when they were binned in the first place.

It is not about cutting corners, it is about working to a different rulebook, and in this I agree 100% with Dirty Harry. Not that the RAF's fleet would get grounded in a worst case scenario however, they would simply pull the jets on to the Military Register and run them under RAF rules. They would then not be allowed to fly anything other than military taskings and I imagine the financial penalties will be horrendous.

The finanical penatlies would be huge as the RAF would be effectively buying them. Easy Jet and Ryan Air don't own their own aircraft, they lease them just like was the RAF will be with these A330's.
 

I Look Like Kevin Costner

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However, for all the mechanics.. Human factors and SFAR88 Certs will be mandatory. In fact the level 2 tank safety cert will be mandatory also!! Get your tools and you will be ready to some serious connying off shift without having to pay for the courses!
 
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I Look Like Kevin Costner

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How bad and for how long do civvy companies have to be for the caa to ground them? Does it happen all the time?

The CAA can be pretty ruthless if a operator isn't playing ball. Most EASA NRA's are of a similar standard. I know the Belgies almost grounded a fleet of freighters operating out of there due to the poor state of allowable damage recording. An AOC is also dependant on the finanical and insurance status of the operator as well. This was illustrated by the collaspe of Excel airways. Immediately they went into recievership, the CAA pulled their AOC and that was the reason passengers were carried to other counties by aircraft caught out in mid flight.. They had lost the permission to fly in UK airspace.

EASA have a list of airlines that are banned from operating in european airspace.. Mostly African and Asian airlines that has engineering proceedures and practices that isn't up to standard..
 
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It is not about cutting corners, it is about working to a different rulebook, and in this I agree 100% with Dirty Harry. Not that the RAF's fleet would get grounded in a worst case scenario however, they would simply pull the jets on to the Military Register and run them under RAF rules. They would then not be allowed to fly anything other than military taskings and I imagine the financial penalties will be horrendous.


Would the RAF be able to do that? As FSTA is not owned by the RAF the purchase of airframes would have to go out to a EU wide tender as per EU legislation regarding Government contracts?

The UOR system is in place to circumvent this system but aren't purchases made using the scheme limited?
 

Talk Wrench

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It is not about cutting corners, it is about working to a different rulebook, and in this I agree 100% with Dirty Harry. Not that the RAF's fleet would get grounded in a worst case scenario however, they would simply pull the jets on to the Military Register and run them under RAF rules.

I'm afraid Weebl that your statement is incorrect. The RAF already operates Military Registered aircraft which are civvy owned. Just because they are on the MR does not mean that the RAF can use them carte blanche and they are cannot run them using RAF rules. The CAA/EASA rules apply ( part 145) and the F700 does not exist for these airframes. It's as simple as that. In fact, the company who owns them tells the RAF exactly what they can and can't do with the aircraft, not the other way round. However, I suppose that if the sh1t really hit the fan i.e world war 3 and the RAF commandeered the frames, then the RAF could do what it wants with them.


TW
 

Weebl

Flight Sergeant
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I'm afraid Weebl that your statement is incorrect. <snip> However, I suppose that if the sh1t really hit the fan i.e world war 3 and the RAF commandeered the frames, then the RAF could do what it wants with them.

By worst case scenario, I meant worst case, not that somebody had forgotten their duty frees. I am talking about If large amounts of British troops are about to die because a Civvy company won't let us use airframes painted in our colours, flown by our pilots and based at our units, I am pretty sure they will be told it will be sorted afterwards and the aircraft will fly.
 
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