Overmanning/Top heavy/Underworked?

[DTRT]

Any other 1st line squadron SAT (T)'s out there who find that they rarely touch jets? My place is so overmanned and underworked, the one or two jobs that are on for about 10-15 of us are being done by SNCO's and CPL's. I've actually hardly touched the aircraft for months now. Any jobs we can get near involve watching a cpl carry out a task (sometimes badly), and then being asked if we’re happy with it for signing the paperwork. Isn't a Cpl/Sgt meant to be checking my work not the other way around? And shouldn't he then sign the 'Work done' box on the B, if he did the work, and get another Cpl/Sgt to check and over sign his work if he's going to steal our jobs? I have raised this in the past to be told by 1 Sgt, 'Well there has to be a pecking order', and Cpl's saying, 'Well I can’t just sit idle in the tea bar all day', but SAC's can? Another good one is 'I didn't work for my tapes to just supervise'!!! Seriously what the ****!! ​

A new Cpl arrived a while back and I overheard one of the older Cpls saying to him 'it's quite good here because its just like being a JT'.... and 'we get on most of the spannering here ourselves',, Well what about the people who are meant to be JT's and doing the spannering? Were in the tea bar and if I’m very lucky I get to do paperwork. And then I’m asked to undersign it. ​

It probably wouldn't be so bad if someone would just acknowledged the over manning/lack of work problem and knock people off. I’m not saying I want to be stacked early every day, I'd happily be the one who stayed if it meant having trade work to do. But that never happens; instead I (and other SACT) spend every day going in to do **** all except any 'admin' I may on. Having all the time in the world for admin usually means I’m well on top of it and then I end up in the tea bar for the whole day and its driving me ****ing insane. ​

I'd be lying if I said I’d done no aircraft jobs this year at all, but every decent one got mentioned in my assessment, they were that few and far between. The other usual scenario is 4-5 of us on a 1-2 man job, every time. The min you turn your back someone dives in there n steals it!!! This had lead to me in the past considering 'shortcuts'. An idea which I quickly put out of my head, but seriously, these frustrating working (or hardly working) conditions will cause a flight safety problem in my eyes. This has all been steadily getting worse since about recession time.​

I’m not sure approaching higher management t about this one is a good idea, they may just find me something to do (non trade tasks naturally).​

This situation is really getting me down here and the point of this post is I’m trying to find out if it’s the same story everywhere in the RAF. Are other squadrons out there as top heavy as ours? 10 cpls, 5 Sgts and only 6 SAC's!! Is this in fact not actually a problem but how it’s meant to be?. Has anyone got any advice? Is this all justified? I just really want to get a feel for this situation from an outside point of view.​

Sorry for the long post!! Was venting steam as well as putting a question out there!​

Cheers​

DTRT​

 

[duffman]

Which sqn are you on? Happens from time to time but long term, pretty unusually.

 

[JTforever]

I wish we were over-manned where I work!

My Sqn seems to have forgotten its primary job is to provide aircraft for the crews to fly.

We have so many people doing 'non-jobs' its just ridiculous. We seem to have more people 'working' doing QCIT/QA/Docs/Lean/Tool stores/ and other made up crap than actually working on the flight line.

The tail really does wag the dog here.

 

[Cornish_Pikey]

Keep a log of the day to day events and any wrongdoings (UNDERSIGNING ETC) and arrange for a closed door chat with the WO.

Also if you aren't actually doing the work then refuse to sign for it as you WILL be held legally responsible if something goes wrong.

 

[OneTimeSooty]

One post? Mis-spelling of ranks (whats an SAT(T) when it's at home?)? No real mention of what platform or where in the world you're from?

Sounds like a trolling reporter to me - though I've been wrong before?

 

[DTRT]

Everyone has a first post. I aint saying where im from because im trying to keep this quiet, and find out about the rest of the RAF. Not turn this into a debate about the setup of my place. You dont know what an SAC(T) is? Get with the times!!

 

[firestorm]

You're trying to keep it quiet by posting about it on a forum?

 

[Max Reheat]

We have 10 SNECs and a Chief on our desk, 7 Cpls and about 9 SACs, you want to talk about top heavy?

 

[DTRT]

You're trying to keep it quiet by posting about it on a forum?

I meant at work! i want to keep the section anonomous.

 

[Dave Yeeles is a bigjobby]

What aircraft then? I've never heard of this before, as you state anyway. My first thoughts were this was a wind up.

Traditionally on a Sqn a Cpl and maybe one or two bods would do a job. Obviously the Cpl is the supervisor but for the main the Cpl would do some or most of the work depending on the skills of his bod. Do you expect him to just direct you and not partake?

 

[Barch]

What aircraft then? I've never heard of this before, as you state anyway. My first thoughts were this was a wind up.

Traditionally on a Sqn a Cpl and maybe one or two bods would do a job. Obviously the Cpl is the supervisor but for the main the Cpl would do some or most of the work depending on the skills of his bod. Do you expect him to just direct you and not partake?

Not in my day!

Yes!

How is the SAC / JT expected to improve their Knowledge & Skills?

So in today's RAF is a Cpl a ...

Supervisor only.

Supervisor / Producer

or

Producer / Supervisor?

 

[Cornish_Pikey]

Not in my day!

Yes!

How is the SAC / JT expected to improve their Knowledge & Skills?

So in today's RAF is a Cpl a ...

Supervisor only.

Supervisor / Producer

or

Producer / Supervisor?

It depends where you work. When you are left with 6 guys to run two shifts and to do the work previously undertaken by 20 or more then everyone is expected to muck in. Even the snec rolled up his sleeves on the really busy days!!

I know I was that snec!

 

[Barch]

It depends where you work. When you are left with 6 guys to run two shifts and to do the work previously undertaken by 20 or more then everyone is expected to muck in. Even the snec rolled up his sleeves on the really busy days!!

I know I was that snec!

I don't think anyone would have a problem with that, my beef would be a corporal carrying out the task with an SAC / JT as a spectator!

 

[Realist78]

It depends where you work. When you are left with 6 guys to run two shifts and to do the work previously undertaken by 20 or more then everyone is expected to muck in. Even the snec rolled up his sleeves on the really busy days!!

I know I was that snec!

So you should.

 

[gemarriott]

Any other 1st line squadron SAT (T)'s out there who find that they rarely touch jets? My place is so overmanned and underworked, the one or two jobs that are on for about 10-15 of us are being done by SNCO's and CPL's. I've actually hardly touched the aircraft for months now. Any jobs we can get near involve watching a cpl carry out a task (sometimes badly), and then being asked if we’re happy with it for signing the paperwork. Isn't a Cpl/Sgt meant to be checking my work not the other way around? And shouldn't he then sign the 'Work done' box on the B, if he did the work, and get another Cpl/Sgt to check and over sign his work if he's going to steal our jobs? I have raised this in the past to be told by 1 Sgt, 'Well there has to be a pecking order', and Cpl's saying, 'Well I can’t just sit idle in the tea bar all day', but SAC's can? Another good one is 'I didn't work for my tapes to just supervise'!!! Seriously what the ****!! ​

A new Cpl arrived a while back and I overheard one of the older Cpls saying to him 'it's quite good here because its just like being a JT'.... and 'we get on most of the spannering here ourselves',, Well what about the people who are meant to be JT's and doing the spannering? Were in the tea bar and if I’m very lucky I get to do paperwork. And then I’m asked to undersign it. ​

It probably wouldn't be so bad if someone would just acknowledged the over manning/lack of work problem and knock people off. I’m not saying I want to be stacked early every day, I'd happily be the one who stayed if it meant having trade work to do. But that never happens; instead I (and other SACT) spend every day going in to do **** all except any 'admin' I may on. Having all the time in the world for admin usually means I’m well on top of it and then I end up in the tea bar for the whole day and its driving me ****ing insane. ​

I'd be lying if I said I’d done no aircraft jobs this year at all, but every decent one got mentioned in my assessment, they were that few and far between. The other usual scenario is 4-5 of us on a 1-2 man job, every time. The min you turn your back someone dives in there n steals it!!! This had lead to me in the past considering 'shortcuts'. An idea which I quickly put out of my head, but seriously, these frustrating working (or hardly working) conditions will cause a flight safety problem in my eyes. This has all been steadily getting worse since about recession time.​

I’m not sure approaching higher management t about this one is a good idea, they may just find me something to do (non trade tasks naturally).​

This situation is really getting me down here and the point of this post is I’m trying to find out if it’s the same story everywhere in the RAF. Are other squadrons out there as top heavy as ours? 10 cpls, 5 Sgts and only 6 SAC's!! Is this in fact not actually a problem but how it’s meant to be?. Has anyone got any advice? Is this all justified? I just really want to get a feel for this situation from an outside point of view.​

Sorry for the long post!! Was venting steam as well as putting a question out there!​

Cheers​

DTRT​

fcuk me that's what uckers and pies was invented for

 

[Dave Yeeles is a bigjobby]

Not in my day!

Yes!

How is the SAC / JT expected to improve their Knowledge & Skills?

So in today's RAF is a Cpl a ...

Supervisor only.

Supervisor / Producer

or

Producer / Supervisor?

You're speaking a load of ****e. So, in your world the Cpl stands over the Producer and says "now, take the tool out of the kit and put it on the nut" etc.

No, they work as a team. The experienced Cpl assesses his tradesman and supervises as required. Inexperienced producer, the Cpl will take more of a hands on role, doing a fair bit of the work if needed but ensuring the producer receives the correct amount of experience. Experienced producer, the Cpl will do very little, maybe even just sort the paperwork. It's al about team work FFS, not about the Cpl standing back and dictating what's done.

It sounds like in the case of the OP that what happens has been taken to the extreme, but I do smell a bit of a rat as I can't believe that there's so much manpower and not enough work.

 

[Barch]

You're speaking a load of ****e. So, in your world the Cpl stands over the Producer and says "now, take the tool out of the kit and put it on the nut" etc.

No, they work as a team. The experienced Cpl assesses his tradesman and supervises as required. Inexperienced producer, the Cpl will take more of a hands on role, doing a fair bit of the work if needed but ensuring the producer receives the correct amount of experience. Experienced producer, the Cpl will do very little, maybe even just sort the paperwork. It's al about team work FFS, not about the Cpl standing back and dictating what's done.

It sounds like in the case of the OP that what happens has been taken to the extreme, but I do smell a bit of a rat as I can't believe that there's so much manpower and not enough work.

I take it you are a corporal that wants to be a producer and not a supervisor?

 

[Dave Yeeles is a bigjobby]

I take it you are a corporal that wants to be a producer and not a supervisor?

Nope, but when I was a Cpl I supervised, very rarely took to the tools, only IF it was needed, maybe at busy times or if the lads were inexperienced or the job was complex.

Seriously, are you guys saying that when you go out on a job the Cpl just grabs a chair and watches? Get real! He gets stuck in where needed, and if that means (for many factors previously mentioned) he does some or most of the work then so be it, after all it's his call as the supervisor. Obviously if it's not needed, then that's bad.

IMHO, it would be foolish to simply apply the same approach to supervision to all, regardless of task complexity, experience and many other factors.

 

[Pikey735]

As you say, it always depends on the experience of the tradesman. Compare the two following tradesmen on a typhoon sqn (pseudonyms used):-

SAC(T) Smith. 9 years served, all on first line fast jet sqns, on high recs, routinely used to teach peers and sometimes jnco's on jobs that are new to them.

SAC(T) Jones. Fresh out of his FT course, only previous experience being 18 months on a flight line at lossie. Minimal trade experience/knowledge.

As a supervisor you tailor the amount of input to the situation (task, manpower etc..) I have worked for supervisors who have been overly keen to 'be on the tools' and it sometimes feels like theyre trying to prove a point, When this happens, I just leave them to finish the job and crack on with the paperwork (Im an SAC(T))

 

[Barch]

As you say, it always depends on the experience of the tradesman. Compare the two following tradesmen on a typhoon sqn (pseudonyms used):-

SAC(T) Smith. 9 years served, all on first line fast jet sqns, on high recs, routinely used to teach peers and sometimes jnco's on jobs that are new to them.

SAC(T) Jones. Fresh out of his FT course, only previous experience being 18 months on a flight line at lossie. Minimal trade experience/knowledge.

As a supervisor you tailor the amount of input to the situation (task, manpower etc..) I have worked for supervisors who have been overly keen to 'be on the tools' and it sometimes feels like theyre trying to prove a point, When this happens, I just leave them to finish the job and crack on with the paperwork (Im an SAC(T))

In that situation who is responsible for the correctness and completeness of the task?