Redress action against Army SNCO?

[Discombobulated]

Hi ladies and Gents. There is potential for this to be a long post, so i apologise in advance..

I work in a Tri-service environment in a Civilian establishment, and I'm currently working under an Army CO, which works fine and the section has no problems where Army command is concerned.

Being a majority Army workplace, we are subject to 2 compulsory PT sessions a week, and a 'Sports afternoon' on a Wednesday which is voluntary, and mostly used as an opportunity for Junior ranks to organise something and get a mention in SJAR's etc.

4 Months ago we had a Military Vs Civvie football match (which we won!) and I picked up an injury, which was diagnosed by the physio as a torn Hip flexor.
Over the last 4 months i have been seeing the physio for treatment, and have been given 'sick chits' to excuse me from compulsory circuits and runs etc, so i have been doing my own training which is mostly upper body with occasional walk/run program as directed by the physio.
As a result of the treatment My RAFT has elapsed.

Anyhow, I saw the Physio last week and we discussed my progress and I informed her that I felt confident that my injury had recovered and that I was eager to get back to the PT program in order to regain some fitness, and we agreed to give it a go and not use any more sick chits.
As expected, I was advised to take my Fitness test at the next opportunity, so I promised my RAF SNCO that it would be taken (and passed) this week before I go on leave next week.

My SNCO is away this week, so the Army SNCO is running the place.
On Monday I went to compulsory PT and the options were a game of 5-a-side football, or do your own thing, so I decided to do a 30 min run on the treadmill to gauge my fitness level for the upcoming RAFT, and also to avoid a sport that injured me last time i played it.
On Tuesday morning I woke up with a familiar feeling of a trapped sciatic nerve in my lower back, something that has plagued me for 5 yrs or more.
I informed my JNCO and the Army SNCO about this slight pain, and mentioned that i would rest from personal training until my RAFT on Thursday morning to avoid flaring up an injury that has had me in agony in the past.

On Wednesday I bumped into the Army SNCO as he was leaving for the day at lunch time, and he informed me that he had nominated me to take part in the sports afternoon (Volleyball) as there wasn't much work on.
I protested as it was a sport i had no interest in, was a voluntary event anyway, and I was concerned that i could make the sciatic nerve issue worse before my RAFT the next day, which of course is more important from a deployable point of view (which I am due in November).
He advised me that if i didn't want to do it, i should talk to the straight talking Staff SGT, but made it clear that i was unlikely to be getting off it.

My CPL agreed with my point of view, and spoke to the SSGT on my behalf, who agreed that I didn't need to attend the sport as it was not compulsory.

On Thursday morning i went to the gym, passed my fitness test but managed to trap the nerve doing sit ups, and went back to work.
I was greeted by silence from the SNCO who had had a go at the JNCO and promised to have a go at me, but that was apparently sorted out.
As the day went on my trapped nerve was giving me a lot of pain and forcing me to limp as i had lost a lot of movement in my right leg, so i called the doctor and got a last minute appt to see him.
This wound up the SNCO because we had compulsory PT in the afternoon, so he believed that i was looking for a way out of doing the fitness.

After taking several prescribed painkillers and paracetamol and resting my back during a good night sleep, I went into work minus a limp.
I was confronted by the SNCO about why i was no longer limping, and I explained how the rest and pain killers had helped to relieve the pain from the trapped nerve, but was basically told that I was putting it on to get out of PT sessions.
I told him that I was fully aware that he thought i was a liar, and he replied with "So your not as naive as you come across"
He then went on to inform me that he would have AGIA'd me for not attending, but he had failed to order me to go so he couldn't, but he had seen many "Malingerers" like me and he had reflected this attitude in their reports.

I offered to allow him access to my confidential medical records in order to highlight how the trapped nerve has cropped up in the past, and caused me to lose feeling in a toe for 3 weeks before traction released it, but he wasn't interested and has made his mind up that I've been 'Playing a game' in order to get one over on him.
This discussion took place in front of a civilian who obviously felt uncomfortable with the situation, and should never have been present when it took place.

So, on to my question....
Should I take formal action over this?
He has accused me of faking an injury despite a doctor signing me off, made it clear that he would have AGIA'd me if he could, and is threatening to make a negative impact on my assessment because i put my fitness test before a game of volleyball, and gave myself a short term injury in order to be deployable in 7 weeks time, rather than do 12 weeks of remedial and missing a deployment.
I should add that my JNCO and RAF SNCO are both on leave at present, so it's just me to defend myself.

All advice is welcome and I'm already considering growing a pair and manning up, so that answer is catered for.
Thanks.

 

[Bratlow]

I'm not too sure that "growing a pair and manning-up" is the way forward. The situation will only escalate if no action is taken and it will come and bite you in the @rse one day.

I would recommend making the formal complaint upon the return of your SNCO and get their advice on the best way forward (perhaps it just needs a cage fight between them to sort it out????)

DT_Xtremez_30:

 

[metimmee]

Wait for the RAF SNCO to get back. You'll have had chance to see how things are going and he can take it up with the other fella or staffy if he thinks It's warrantied.

 

[Discombobulated]

Obviously I'm pretty P'eed off about this right now as it happened this afternoon, so the weeks leave should help me to cool off and give it more consideration.
I have also emailed my JNCO to inform him of the conversation, and we spoke briefly on the phone an hour ago.
Needless to say, he isn't impressed either and is going to see what happens on Monday with the Army SNCO, and discuss things with the RAF SNCO on his return and try to calm the situation down, which I would prefer if i'm honest. Up until Thursday we had got along really well!

Whilst I'm prepared to stand my ground and take things further if the situation requires it, I'd rather not fight an Army SNCO in an Army led environment as it is not going to be good for my career.
From my point of view, I have been accused of lying and belittled in front of a 3rd party, so I obviously have reason to complain, but from the outside looking in, am i just another Junior rank who doesn't like working under Army seniority and i'm making waves that will give me a bad name or reputation for the rest of my duration at this unit?

It's a bit of a rock and hard place situation for me as I don't want or need this hassle at a time when promotion is already quite tough, and be forced to decide between backing down and being 'The malingerer' or standing up for myself and being 'The @rsehole' in the eyes of anyone who shares his frame of mind on the situation.

I'm just glad I have next week off so I don't act to hastily and do something I may regret.

 

[Stevienics]

As a horrible (but frighteninngly accurate) generalisation, don't expect a rational or intelligent response from the Army when you are right and they are wrong - they work the numbers game and sure as poo is poo any escaltion up the green tree will come back down on your head.

Instead, as suggested, wait for the cavalry to arrive. Then tell said green SNCO that you have considered all he has to say, and would like to take it further and would he like to join you in a 3 way conversation with the OC to clarify matters.

Then watch his face.

 

[Sixty Percent Overlap]

I too work within a joint environment (however more green slime than crabs) and, even as a Sgt, I've come across in the past a couple of SNCOs who think to 'qualify' themselves more senior to me although being staffies but have done less years and less people time than me.

What I will state though is you are doing the RIGHT thing at the moment and, more importantly after reading your detailed description of what's happening, you've not lost your temper about the whole situation.

It's clear to me that communication between your RAF SNCO and the Army SNCO was not there regarding your situation and, as advised by others on this thread, wait until your blue SNCO is back in the office. Ask him/her to listen to what has occurred up until now and I'm absolutely confident that they will support you all the way. What is also important is, as illustrated, is to document on paper the whole situtation if you wish to proceed this further.

I have in the past told one or two Army SNCOs in the past to back the fcuk off when it comes to situations like this to my blue juniors. The important thing to remember is you passed your RAF fitness test (well done mate) and not theirs and your health and well being is paramount to OUR service.

 

[Rocket_Ronster]

I have to say if it were me, i`d go well out of my way to wind the army sarge up, holding my back and limping whenever there were no witnesses,etc. But i hasten to add, this says more about me rather than being advice you should follow. DT_Xtremez_14:

 

[busby1971]

There's a stage before complaining, mediation a chance to discuss the issue with an independant adult in the room.

It's a tri service scheme so there should be someone available wherever you are.

Rank can be a bit of an absolute thing with the Army but you've done no wrong and you are doing yourself or the Service by making your health worse.

Good luck

 

[he_who_dares_rodney]

When you woke up and realised you had a sore back and a nerve problem why didn't you go sick straight away.
Reading you post and I can see why you saved your self for your fitness test however looking at it from his point of view:
You jib vollyball but completed a fitness test and jibbed P.T. but were spotted walking without discomfert.
From his point of view you did look as though you were at it

Sit your boss down when he comes back and explain it.
Next time you feel a problem come on get a chit and hand it in.
That way everyone knows up front and you are in the clear

 

[Discombobulated]

When you woke up and realised you had a sore back and a nerve problem why didn't you go sick straight away.
Reading you post and I can see why you saved your self for your fitness test however looking at it from his point of view:
You jib vollyball but completed a fitness test and jibbed P.T. but were spotted walking without discomfert.
From his point of view you did look as though you were at it

Sit your boss down when he comes back and explain it.
Next time you feel a problem come on get a chit and hand it in.
That way everyone knows up front and you are in the clear

You make some good points, and I do see how it would look that way, but I will explain my reasons below.

The pain on Tuesday morning was not enough to cause me too much trouble, and knowing that every other week I had PT sessions on a Monday and Thursday, with the option to do PT on a Wednesday, I knew from past experience that the pain would ease if i rested for a couple of days, so Thursday was my target to be able to take and pass the RAFT.

Having provided sick chits for past 4 months, I was eager to prove to myself, the physio and my seniors that I am wanting to remain fit and pass my RAFT as i promised the RAF SNCO (who runs the show normally), and did not want to explain to him that the week after i had regained fitness I was now unfit again due to a different injury. Neither my JNCO or my SNCO partake in the optional fitness on Wednesday, and they have never expected me to do so.

I did intend to do yesterdays PT session, but sciatica is a bit unpredictable and I was barely able to walk upright or sit properly without major discomfort, which the doctor spotted when i was in the waiting room, and diagnosed quite quickly from my poor movement and past medical record.

The sick chit i received yesterday was for 2 days only, and was unfit PT and unfit lifting. The 2 days was at my personal request simply because I'm on leave and can rest my back accordingly, and should (from past experience) be fully fit again by the time i return to work, and do PT on the Monday.

His query about my 'lack of limp' this morning was more a dig at me with a lot of cynicism attached. I'm not going to limp around if the injury feels better, just like I don't pretend that all is well when i have pain shooting through my body. I behave according to my circumstances.

I think the thing that got up my nose the most was that I wasn't trusted enough to make a decision about how my body might react to the injury I have lived with on and off for 5 years, and then accused of being a malingerer when the very fact that i ensured i was fit enough to deploy for a tour over Xmas highlights that I'm far from being a malingerer, otherwise I could have failed the RAFT, had an easy 12 weeks of remedial and allowed someone else to fill my OOA tour over the festive season.

As for the Sick chits letting everyone know where they stand, that hasn't been the case on this occasion. I'm now in a position that I have to carry on regardless if this injury persists because I won't be believed by a senior rank who is insistent on reflecting his opinion on my next SJAR.

 

[Discombobulated]

I should also add, one of his arguments against my fitness was that he has only seen me do 2 PT sessions since i got to this unit in Feb.
He forgets that he did 4 months In Afghan (Leaving 1 week after i arrived) and 1 month of leave, and I have had leave since his return, and been on 2 courses totalling 2 working weeks away (and i still went for runs outside of work hours).
Before my injury I also passed the AFT at a level expected of an 18 year old, and i'm 31, so I think its fair to say that I am willing to do my bit.

My fitness is one of my personal prides, and not being able to train properly for those 4 months has had a massive effect on my weight, my motivation and attitude (not in a 'I will do what i please sort of way' but in a general 'Not particularly happy' way) and being in a position to train again without fear of the Hip flexor injury flaring up has had a positive impact on my attitude, and I'm doing my best to maintain that by getting back to my former fitness, or beyond if i can.
Being accused of dodging fitness by this overweight SNCO is probably the most insulting part of it all.

 

[Weebl]

As for the Sick chits letting everyone know where they stand, that hasn't been the case on this occasion. I'm now in a position that I have to carry on regardless if this injury persists because I won't be believed by a senior rank who is insistent on reflecting his opinion on my next SJAR.

Mate, if you have a sick chit then a qualified medical person has made a determination on your condition.

Regardless of the rank of the person who does not believe you (and this is not an Army only issue, I have seen it happen with a fellow RAF SNCO who had to be told to wind his neck in) he is not qualified to call you a liar.

Yes, I have seen people who I have believed are swinging the lead with the docs but the fact you have passed your RAFFT and simply did not attend one session which you had been volunteered for would lead any sensible person to at the very least give you the benefit of the doubt.

DO NOT try to carry on if you need to go sick because of the opinion of one senior rank, He is not allowed to override the Doc, no matter how much he would like to and he won't be stupid enough to write that on your SJAR, if he is you just stick a service complaint in.

However, as you quite rightly pointed out he could make life difficult in other ways for you, so as suggested above, get your RAF Sneck on side, explain what happened and get him to have a word.

Don't be bullied into making your injury worse though.

 

[Discombobulated]

Mate, if you have a sick chit then a qualified medical person has made a determination on your condition.

Regardless of the rank of the person who does not believe you (and this is not an Army only issue, I have seen it happen with a fellow RAF SNCO who had to be told to wind his neck in) he is not qualified to call you a liar.

Yes, I have seen people who I have believed are swinging the lead with the docs but the fact you have passed your RAFFT and simply did not attend one session which you had been volunteered for would lead any sensible person to at the very least give you the benefit of the doubt.

DO NOT try to carry on if you need to go sick because of the opinion of one senior rank, He is not allowed to override the Doc, no matter how much he would like to and he won't be stupid enough to write that on your SJAR, if he is you just stick a service complaint in.

However, as you quite rightly pointed out he could make life difficult in other ways for you, so as suggested above, get your RAF Sneck on side, explain what happened and get him to have a word.

Don't be bullied into making your injury worse though.

When i was told by him that i was 'playing a game' to get out of fitness, I told him that he can't say that. He informed me that he can say that as he is a SNCO and that is his opinion, to which i pointed out that his opinion means nothing without medical qualifications to back them up, but "anyone can tell the doctor they have an injury to get off work and PT" was his response.
How can I go to a doctor with any future injuries that aren't visible like a break or a deep cut?
There is some good news in all this... He is posted in December, but I still have 7 weeks of this sort of judgement and bad atmosphere.

I know that my RAF SNCO is far more mature and approachable over things, and had he been present he wouldn't have nominated me to do a sport i had no interest in, and he would have been prepared to give me the benefit of the doubt over my niggle and the RAFT, but I would have been expected to pass or face the wrath (as i would expect).

Its a shame something so petty has got so far out of hand, but if I don't stand up for myself then i'm allowing it to happen again in the future, but if I fight it i risk alienating myself from other SNCO's. Something so pathetic could have a very serious impact on my future, and i'm pretty down about it.

 

[Sixty Percent Overlap]

As weebl states, your working yourself up into a state. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, do not worry!

Your SNCO and, more importantly the Medical Centre, have and will support you on this.

The Army SNCO in question does not have a leg to stand on if he/she continues to behave like this.

Ultimately, your SNCO and the green one need to talk!

 

[Weebl]

How can I go to a doctor with any future injuries that aren't visible like a break or a deep cut?

Because that is what you are supposed to do, in fact it is your duty to do so.

If he wants to bang heads with the Medical system because he is better at diagnosing you than they are he will be in for lots of interviews, he won't be having them with coffee.

Don't stress, have a chat with your SNCO when he gets back, odds on he will sort it with a quick chat. You may even find that the Army SNCO will have already realised he may have been 'a bit hasty' on his own by the time you next run into him.

 

[Soon To Leave]

Rank and intelligence don't always go hand in hand and where promotion between trades and Services differ in pace this often causes conflict.

 

[Discombobulated]

Thanks for all the feedback and advice so far.
I have been reading each post and taking something from each one (including the idea of winding up the SNCO with fake injuries, although i probably won't) and if nothing else, it has proven what I always thought. When it comes to advice and common sense, the RAF seem to have a better grasp of it than our Green brethren.
I'll try to put this whole thing behind me for the week and enjoy my leave, and pick this up when i get back and know what's going on.
Thanks again for all the support and advice.

 

[unclenelli]

Inform Pongo Pete that in order to charge/admin action you, it must be done iaw MAFL which is the only military law which you as a Light Blue are subject to. It does not recognise AGAIs, so it must be done under an RAF regulation that says your attendance at a voluntary event is compulsary - which of course there won't be!

If he's serious, the research involved will boil his tiny cannon-fodder brain and keep him out of your way for a few weeks.

(Unless there's a bit in the new Armed Forces Act which has imposed jointery on us all. When I got charged by the RN way back, it was done as a complaint by the RN to RAF and an RAF WO charged me iaw MAFL etc)

At which point, you just point everyone to the medicos who will back you to the hilt.

Nothing to worry about (apart from Pongo Pete trying to get revenge at a later date, but it sounds like that will never go away during the life of your postings together)

 

[bubblebutt]

Inform Pongo Pete that in order to charge/admin action you, it must be done iaw MAFL which is the only military law which you as a Light Blue are subject to. It does not recognise AGAIs, so it must be done under an RAF regulation that says your attendance at a voluntary event is compulsary - which of course there won't be!

If he's serious, the research involved will boil his tiny cannon-fodder brain and keep him out of your way for a few weeks.

(Unless there's a bit in the new Armed Forces Act which has imposed jointery on us all. When I got charged by the RN way back, it was done as a complaint by the RN to RAF and an RAF WO charged me iaw MAFL etc)

At which point, you just point everyone to the medicos who will back you to the hilt.

Nothing to worry about (apart from Pongo Pete trying to get revenge at a later date, but it sounds like that will never go away during the life of your postings together)

I too work in a civilian environment with tri-service personnel so I know your pain!! I think the new MAA discipline route has supassed AGAI's.However this army lad really needs to get a grip,of himself! The RAF snec will get it sorted i'd imagine.

 

[amfortas]

You are subject not only to RAF regs but to the War Act.

In a tri-service establishement you are obliged to obey the orders of superiors. ONLY if you are ordered to commit an illegal act (in your opinion) may you refuse - and there WILL be consequences to that refusal.

When you have obeyed the orders you are entitled to seek redress. Not before.

If the Sgt ordered you to do something which you consider 'voluntary', even if the Doc has said you may not, you are nevertheless obliged to obey the order of the Sgt. He is your superior, regardless of the colour of his uniform. He will then be held to account. His dismissal of your objections and the countermanding of a 'clearance' from the Doc is enough to have him carpeted.

This is a difficult dilemma for you. But remember that you are not your own man; you are the Queen's man. And so is he.

I had a similar situation many years ago as a Cpl, when I was ordered by a Flt Lt to do a particularly nasty job - on my own - which should have been in my purview to have several of my guys do with me or under my supervision. He ordered me to do it because he considered that I had been insolent to him. I had not.

I did the task. It took 12 hours from 7pm til 7am the next day.

I did not like it and it was more than the usual onerous work that should have been assigned to one man, let alone an NCO. I was covered from head to foot in kero by the time I was finished.

Having done the job I simply waited for my Sqn Ldr (the SATCO) to arrive. He took one look at me and said, "I guess you have something to say, Cpl !". He listened to my points.

His action was to put that Flt Lt to work clearing all rubbish in sight around the perimeter of the base (Akrotiri) - by himself. He was at it for 16 hours and the boss drove aroung the perimeter himself to make sure he had picked up every bit.

That shight of a Flt Lt never ever bothered me again.