SAC Runway Caravan Controllers

[ROTORHEAD]

vans

vans

If you read the current edition of Aviate you'll see that an Acting Cpl got a Flight Safety Award for spotting an A/C with its hook down whilst in the RWC!!

It would be a bad 'show' if mere SACs got the chance of getting commendations, Good shows etc for doing what they are in a runway van for, in the first place!

Or am I just a cynic?

 

[Hmmmm]

I'm all for it. Too many cpls sat on their arses in sqn ops doing an SAC's job. The trade is in a shambolic statel and, from a management perspective, if an individual is good enough, give him/her a job.

 

[Part Time PFOM]

insideinfoman

Heres an interesting fact and the reason behind the move I think? Currently there are 376 SACs to 324 Cpls!!!!

I am confused (those of you that know me will think ' Nothing new there then') but if there are 324 Cpls in the trade, why is there a shortage? Christ, with the Station closures that are going on, or planned........How many Cpl RWY Controllers will RAF Linconshire need????DT_Xtremez_08:

If the assistant is good then why not let him/her do it?

Surely the added responsibilty of being the RWC controller should be reflexed in their 6000 and give weight to the promotion recommendation.

I agree, if they are good enough then let them do it and reflect it in their 6000.

In the good old days before JMLC and TMT........yes I am old enough to remember them.....one day you could be an SAC working in Ops then a few weeks later you could find yourself as a Cpl in the caravan. What has changedDT_Xtremez_35:

 

[skevans]

Quite true.

Heres an interesting fact and the reason behind the move I think? Currently there are 376 SACs to 324 Cpls!!!!

And not forgetting last night whilst getting a brief watching 2 long standing WOs shaking their heads!!! The only other way would be to promote the said SACs to Cpl and then there is no problem.......apart from no SACs out there with the required promotion rec's/seniority!!!! DT_Xtremez_35: I guess as a trade we are buggered for promotions for the next few years!!


DT_Xtremez_28:

Sad as it is to say it, the fire service is in a similar position. We have had some guys promoted with two assessments because there was no one else! Fortunately promotion to Cpl is levelling out and this situation shouldn't occur again, for a while anyway!

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

I'm all for it. Too many cpls sat on their arses in sqn ops doing an SAC's job. The trade is in a shambolic statel and, from a management perspective, if an individual is good enough, give him/her a job.

Been on many Sqns Hmmm? Bit of a sweeping statement to be honest. Typical controller opinionDT_Xtremez_25:

 

[Hmmmm]

Been on lots of sqns, walked through many stn ops. Work at a unit where 60% are cpls and 40% SACs - the majority do the same job (OK a small number of cpls are SWMs). SSH, you appear to have some disdain for controllers - get over it. Many of us actually care about TG9 and we don't have ambitions to shaft the Trade at every opportunity. However, as long as the non-specialist officer corps talk-up various jobs within the Trade, the career profile will remain in it's ludicrous state (3 recs as an SAC and you automatically get promoted?). Combine that with towers where a significant percentage are fast-trackers (ie never going to be cpls) and it is obvious why we are having to put SACs in caravans.

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

I was asking had you ever worked in Sqn Ops, hell of a difference to being in a Sqn. I have no disdain for controllers, I work with them on a daily basis; in fact I have lots of friends who are controllers.

I thought it was a sweeping statement of sitting on their ar$es; speaking from an SH point of view, the staff worked hard and especially so whilst deployed. The reason in having JNCOs was to allow them some credibility with the Army in the field, also it was to enable a higher level of trade knowledge. If you have ever worked with the Army in an Operational and deployed environment you will know what I mean. With working on Sqns you get all sorts of starnge questions regarding trade and ops, therefore it does help to have that extra knowledge.

I worked at your Radar unit when it was at LATCC in the late 80's, 40 SACs and 4 Cpls. It had the 10 times the traffic loading, so I do know the work capabilities of an SAC.

By the way, it is not 3 recs for promotion, you can get it on 1 possibly 2

 

[J Y Kelly]

Which Stations have caravans?
Does anyone care to guess at the number of established posts for Caravan Controllers?
Is this an attempt to rebalance the numbers of SAC's to Cpl's within the trade?
Has some bright spark suggested this as a means to save money?

 

[You Can Call Me Al]

And Another Thing...

And Another Thing...

Salty - you and I both know that there are a lot of 'routine' jobs in locations various, especialy when compared to the job of the RWC.

Surprisingly, I'm going to disagree with insidetrouserlegman!

Surely the added responsibilty of being the RWC controller should be reflexed [spelling - see me] in their 6000 and give weight to the promotion recommendation.

- of course the fact that an individual has 'achieved' selection for RWC duties should be recognised in the ACR. Unfortunately that will not reward said individual over and above the good report that any ATCA (?) would receive for a more mundane job well done. I refer the Rt Hon Gent to the answer I gave earlier: introduce a proper training course and PAY THE GOING RATE FOR SUCH A RESPONSIBLE POST.

I have no problem with Good Shows and the like. It's easy to say that they are 'just doing their job' - but why not give recognition of a job well done? It doesn't hurt anybody and it might even make somebody feel good!!

I have to echo Chaka's comment about being dug out of the mire by a RWC on more than one occasion. Mind you; on the flip side one or two (you know who you are) RWCs have given me a bl**dy good listening to for not being as sharp as they should be. Question - why not?

- Below-average personal standards?
- Poor training?
- Other factors?​

A good deal of the above could, and should, be formally addressed by the trade. I doubt that the current system would stand robust scrutiny in the event of (God forbid) legal procedings.

 

[The Controller]

SirSalty

in fact I have lots of friends who are controllers

.

....you bloody well don't!

 

[Dirk Thrust]

Just give them acting/paid. They will get the fiscal rewards and the added responsibility that goes with the rank.

 

[Chaka]

Just give them acting/paid. They will get the fiscal rewards and the added responsibility that goes with the rank.

Hmm...not always the case. DT_Xtremez_41: There are some Officers I would not trust to carry out the duties of a runway controller.DT_Xtremez_08:

As has already been said, this is one of those jobs that requires a little bit of savvy and it carries grave consequences should they fook up. The van Cpls make it look easy because they are good at it, have the experience needed and can make spilt second decisions based on that experience. With the rank of Cpl they will also carry the can.


Now you have made me start writing sensible and I get angry when I have to do that in my 2 hour lunch break.DT_Xtremez_25:

 

[Dirk Thrust]

Hmm...not always the case. DT_Xtremez_41: There are some Officers I would not trust to carry out the duties of a runway controller.DT_Xtremez_08:

As has already been said, this is one of those jobs that requires a little bit of savvy and it carries grave consequences should they fook up. The van Cpls make it look easy because they are good at it, have the experience needed and can make spilt second decisions based on that experience. With the rank of Cpl they will also carry the can.


Now you have made me start writing sensible and I get angry when I have to do that in my 2 hour lunch break.DT_Xtremez_25:

Generally I would agree, however there are some very junior Cpls, that have not been in the RAF that long who are very good and that is not because of experience, but comes down to individual's personal pride in doing a good job and a willingness to learn from his/her seniors. With the increase in rank yes they will carry the can, but then when they really are promoted they have to any way. If they do a good job, yes it will be reflected on 6000's and rightly so

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

Salty - you and I both know that there are a lot of 'routine' jobs in locations various, especialy when compared to the job of the RWC.

SirSalty .

....you bloody well don't!

Wahay, Stadler and Waldorf are back!!! DT_Xtremez_14:

Seriously though Al, I agree about the 'routine jobs' in comparison to RWC but I was commenting on the sweeping statement with regard to Ops Jobs and sitting on ar$es. I have done RWC and I know how important the job is and the level of responsibility.

This has been covered loads in the past, but if it is in a guys TORs to spot a loose panel etc then why should he get a "well done", would he get a swift kick in the tessers for not doing it? If he spotted it whilst mushroom picking on driver job then fair enough but he is there to spot loose panels etc. We will be introducing Maccy D style stars next!!

In the late 80s there was the arguments reference LONRAD assistants being Cpl, the SACs doing the job were damn good at it and funnily enough trained the Cpls prior to being posted out and now it is going back to SAC. What are the chances of this all going back to Cpl as well?

 

[Chaka]

Wahay, Stadler and Waldorf are back!!! DT_Xtremez_14:

SSH- You don't know who true that is!

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

SSH- You don't know who true that is!

Oh But I do good Sir!!

 

[The Controller]

SSH

Wahay, Stadler and Waldorf are back!!!

Oi! I bloody resemble that, young man!!!

I recall a lot of talk on this subject some time ago....but I still think that, unlike those Caravan Controllers, all those God-like D&D Controllers deserved all those Good Shows for doing their job! No....I really do!

 

[You Can Call Me Al]

Just a Thought...

Just a Thought...

... but I wonder if the aircrew realise that the RWC job is being 'downgraded' to SAC? I have to say that this is not decrying the abilities of SACs (I was one - AC2; AC1; LAC and then SAC*), but it is undermining the importance of the task - all of a sudden it is a job that can be executed by a less well-paid individual.

(* Following a damn fine 6442 from my admin Sgt - the Fat Controller - in 1971!)

 

[skevans]

Which Stations have caravans?

The home of the harrier certainly has one. Colerne as well, though I think it is all civvie there now. Not sure about any others but I do travel to a lot of stations because of my job and there are an awful lot of caravans sat in MT yards.

 

[You Can Call Me Al]

Caravans sat in MT yards?!? You'll be telling me next that there's often no duty pilot on duty in Towers these days.

WTF is the world coming to?

Time to retire...

DT_Xtremez_09: