TG1 Retention again

[baconandeggs]

Anyone know what the holdup is beyond 'it's the Treasury ' ?
Too expensive, too many people in scope, want to spend it on something else?

 

[Barch]

The EPAT Teams page is a brilliant read when it comes to people talking/moaning/being a mouthy cpl (My personal fave) about the FRI, it's like E-Goat but with less retired old people who haven't seen the Air Force in years.

EPAT Teams page ??

 

[Flumpdaddy]

EPAT Teams page ??

Intranet, so not for public consumption.

An MS Teams Group where EPAT provides updates to the eng trades and allows questions to be asked

 

[Forestfan]

Anyone know what the holdup is beyond 'it's the Treasury ' ?
Too expensive, too many people in scope, want to spend it on something else?

It's the RAF's money so to speak, not more coming from HMT. The only reason they're involved is that the amount to be spent is too large to be authorised by anyone in Defence including SoS. So it's bureaucratic bollocks/audit process holding up the decision.

 

[Gilbert]

The EPAT thread is quite funny, been quite a popular read in the office. Alot of personnel are threaded by the delay and perhaps feel like they have been misled by it (i.e. string people along).

People will leave, once again see large promotion numbers (150+) for AS1 and Cpl, people will be promoted who shouldn't (more time in rank needed to be actually fully competitive and ready), therefore making mine and everyone else's life harder...

Perhaps it's my time to go also...

Same in our office, with the 'Mouthy Unsackable Cpl' and 'Wheres the money gone' being popular topics. Along with the insane amount of emojis that randomly get added from various ranks across the RAF to add to the hilarity.

 

[Flumpdaddy]

Same in our office, with the 'Mouthy Unsackable Cpl' and 'Wheres the money gone' being popular topics. Along with the insane amount of emojis that randomly get added from various ranks across the RAF to add to the hilarity.

 

[4everAD]

CAS has alluded to the disgruntlement this will cause across the rest of the RAF and I share his concerns. As a package the majority of the Engineering profession will have the following in addition to most of the rest of the RAF (feel free to add if I miss something or remark if I'm wrong):

1. Supplement 3 pay.
2. Trade pay.
3. FRI
4. OR8 rank (I know TG1 FS already get the pay but now the 1975 pension element kicks in as you have the rank).

Its going to feel very much like a them and us RAF, and that is never a good place to be. I understand the arguement that you need to be competitive with civvy street but where do you stop? It feels like the tail is wagging the dog.
Do I sound bitter and jealous? Of course, and that's the point I'm making; so will alot of others.

 

[Typhoon-Techie]

CAS has alluded to the disgruntlement this will cause across the rest of the RAF and I share his concerns. As a package the majority of the Engineering profession will have the following in addition to most of the rest of the RAF (feel free to add if I miss something or remark if I'm wrong):

1. Supplement 3 pay.
2. Trade pay.
3. FRI
4. OR8 rank (I know TG1 FS already gets this but now the 1975 pension element kicks in as you have the rank).

Its going to feel very much like a them and us RAF, and that is never a good place to be. I understand the arguement that you need to be competitive with civvy street but where do you stop? It feels like the tail is wagging the dog.
Do I sound bitter and jealous? Of course, and that's the point I'm making; so will alot of others.

We feel you, but also without engineers you don't have anything to fly.

We can be logs, we can be admin, security and still be an engineer.

Logs, Security and Admin cannot be engineers.

ideally, you want a whole force of engineers trained personnel to some level, then trade assist is available wherever. Currently, if an asset (Mil AT) is U/S down route, only the GE and SVC can fix it. All the pax just sit and watch... ideally, everyone could get involved at some form, removing panels helping etc.

 

[mullah lite]

We feel you, but also without engineers you don't have anything to fly.

We can be logs, we can be admin, security and still be an engineer.

Logs, Security and Admin cannot be engineers.

ideally, you want a whole force of engineers trained personnel to some level, then trade assist is available wherever. Currently, if an asset (Mil AT) is U/S down route, only the GE and SVC can fix it. All the pax just sit and watch... ideally, everyone could get involved at some form, removing panels helping etc.

I'm not exactly sure that the 1st Bn, The Loamshires are going to be of much use when applying the speed tape.

Other sweeping generalisations are available, but experience and qualification on type come in pretty handy. Currency is everything, in all fields of a technical organisation, don't let an ability to 'spanner' narrow your mind.

 

[Flumpdaddy]

CAS has alluded to the disgruntlement this will cause across the rest of the RAF and I share his concerns. As a package the majority of the Engineering profession will have the following in addition to most of the rest of the RAF (feel free to add if I miss something or remark if I'm wrong):

1. Supplement 3 pay.
2. Trade pay.
3. FRI
4. OR8 rank (I know TG1 FS already get the pay but now the 1975 pension element kicks in as you have the rank).

Its going to feel very much like a them and us RAF, and that is never a good place to be. I understand the arguement that you need to be competitive with civvy street but where do you stop? It feels like the tail is wagging the dog.
Do I sound bitter and jealous? Of course, and that's the point I'm making; so will alot of others.

We already are a them and us RAF in many ways. Officers v ORs, Aircrew v everyone else, all the various trades v each other.

I would suggest stopping once retention and recruitment isn't a problem. If at that point the non engineer trades feel under valued then they can make their cases for improvement or walk like the engineers are now.

I don't think Typoon Techies comments about being able to do everyone else's jobs is accurate. Yes I can locate and pick a spare from a shelf but there's a lot more to other trades jobs than we necessarily see, in this case the regulations behind shipping military kit all around the world is something I have little idea about and no interest or time to learn, that's why we have logs.

 

[muttywhitedog]

How many aircraft tasks on typhoons or F35B take true engineering these days and how many are replacement of a component/box made by an outside contractor diagnosed by a piece of kit again manufactured by an outside company?

 

[Talk Wrench]

How many aircraft tasks on typhoons or F35B take true engineering these days and how many are replacement of a component/box made by an outside contractor diagnosed by a piece of kit again manufactured by an outside company?

Sorry Mutty, whilst I appreciate the argument and perhaps even the sentiment, the person/s signing off an aircraft release to service are the ones who will be held legally responsible if anything goes wrong, regardless of what you allude to.

 

[Rocket_Ronster]

How many aircraft tasks on typhoons or F35B take true engineering these days and how many are replacement of a component/box made by an outside contractor diagnosed by a piece of kit again manufactured by an outside company?

How do you know which bit to replace ?

 

[muttywhitedog]

How do you know which bit to replace ?

Doesnt the plug-in diagnostic give a code and the fault manual translates that code into "replace X", then the repair manual tells you how to replace it?

I'm not saying that it still doesnt need some degree of skill and knowledge to do the repair, but "engineering" is possibly an overstatement. "Technician" perhaps would be more appropriate IMHO.

Take Admin/HR for example where there are several different titles, from HR Assistant to HR Analyst Should all ranks be known as HR Consultants?

 

[Spearmint]

Doesnt the plug-in diagnostic give a code and the fault manual translates that code into "replace X", then the repair manual tells you how to replace it?

I'm not saying that it still doesnt need some degree of skill and knowledge to do the repair, but "engineering" is possibly an overstatement. "Technician" perhaps would be more appropriate IMHO.

Take Admin/HR for example where there are several different titles, from HR Assistant to HR Analyst Should all ranks be known as HR Analysts?

In addition to Rocket_Ronster's or Talk Wrench's points.

It doesn't remove the element of ensuring that any work carried out is done so safely, and that system integrity is maintained even if it is just in accordance with a set of Technical Instructions (verified by the likes of myself before being issued out as part of my areas DLoDs).

Things can and do go wrong on the flightline or in the hangar, your head needs to be on a swivel the entire time as you are dealing with machines that are designed to fly primarily, with the fixing of them an afterthought. Failing in this runs a significant risk of serious injury and/or death along with loss of very expensive equipment. That's before you take into account all of the hazardous chemicals you are exposed to defatting the skin, or building up in your body overtime until 'something' happens, the radiation which will unravel your very DNA if not careful, the risk of permanent sight loss or just good old Tinnitus which is maddening as hell.

How often do you hear of admin types being exposed to such risks with both short and long term, sometimes life changing effects?

 

[Rocket_Ronster]

Paper cuts can be nasty.

 

[Rocket_Ronster]

Doesnt the plug-in diagnostic give a code and the fault manual translates that code into "replace X", then the repair manual tells you how to replace it?

A bit like a modern car, then ?

Int 70s, come a sunny Sunday, a lot of people would be out tinkering with their pride and joy. Not now, you'll never see someone under the bonnet.
Why is that ? Surely if all you need is a cooter reader then garages are no longer needed ?

 

[muttywhitedog]

A bit like a modern car, then ?

Int 70s, come a sunny Sunday, a lot of people would be out tinkering with their pride and joy. Not now, you'll never see someone under the bonnet.
Why is that ? Surely if all you need is a cooter reader then garages are no longer needed ?

Exactly. But you'll hardly ever see a garage building the replacement part from scratch. Its invariably a case of garage orders replacement part and replaces it as per manufacturer instructions using specialist tools.

I wouldnt call someone in Kwik Fit or Halfords a vehicle engineer.

Me thinks some of you are clinging onto the word "engineer" when "technician" or "mechanic" would be more appropriate.

 

[Gilbert]

I'm gonna go against the grain and agree with muttywhitedog, we are hardly engineers.

I mean the Reds have proven none TG1 SP can do Flight Line work with the trial a few winters ago.

The clue is in the name on the RAF Careers site, we are Technicians.

Before the old and bold on here wahh about Airworthiness, the authority your sig holds etc. Yes it's a lot, I agree and I'm a TG1 Senior. But then does a TFL Bus Mechanic/Supervisor not hold similar authority? Mr Mechanic and Mr Supervisor are maintaining a large metal object which holds a lot of members of the general public, if that goes wrong and a lot of people die. Thats bad right?

But do we call them Engineers? No we don't.

Heck the clue is also even in the course that Chiefs and above are now mandated to do to get promoted. STAC - Senior Technician Airworthiness Course.

I was one of the lucky few (Along with Spearmint, who likes to remind everyone on here) who worked F35 in the states, did our Q in the states and spent a lot of time maintaining them. Our Q Course instructors at Eglin told us the jet is designed to be maintained by the lowest common denominator, which is a Private in the USMC. The same Private who can join the USMC as infantry and then is streamed instead to an aircraft tech role at the end of basic because they need them instead.

Do you need something about you? Yes you do. Do you need a abit of a technical mind? Yes you do.

But we are not engineers, same could be said for the BT Engineer who comes and drills a hole in your house for your broadband. Or the Sky Engineer who fits a dish. Overused.

I'll prepare myself and be ready for wahhs, but we all know its true. The core job is getting easier, but what isn't is the fact a lot of people are stretched, covering/supervising different things and are just getting sick of it.

Roles in civvy street our training and experience can get us into can pay the same/more and have much less of the associated bollocks such as deployments, being away from family, MOD 1, Fitness Tests and everything else that comes with military life.

Hence the FRI to try and keep people in. Its starting to effect flying hours and AC availability and heaven forbid the winged master race have that.

 

[Talk Wrench]

I blame HR for constantly making up twatty names for jobs.

Recycling Efficiency Operative. - Bin man.

Senior Logistics Transport Executive. - Delivery driver

Just as a wah for our Gilbert, I'm a Technician in an engineering role with Chief Engineer signature rights. Why, because my technical knowledge helps engineer solutions which will be applied by technicians or other engineers depending on where in the engineering process that they are employed.

Our HR Departmental Support Executive Manager (clerk) really need to get on top of my job title.