The State were in.

[Standards]

I though that this had all been put to bed some time ago!

Donald - I heard that as well, but I also heard from the PFOM at that unit, that the person who went back to the unit with the 'trainee' went with the mindset of trying to lay the blame at the feet of one person, Lord only knows what ever happened to him; one suspects he's in the same job wondering why he hasn't been picked up

I am that man who went with the LAC (he had passed the course and, therefore no long a trainee). I never met the PFOM at the Unit which was a shame as I was unable to get a look at all of the training files at the Unit to see if there was a problem with the individual or with the training system in place. I never had any mindset of any kind. But the fact remains that there seemed to be no structured mentoring system in place. When the LAC in question was trying to complete the work that he was having problems with, he was being observed by 2 Cpls and a SAC, with myself sat watching, but not inputting anything to the work. He was berated verbally by one of the Cpl's and not allowed the chance to explain what he had been trying to achieve. He may have had the best idea yet to improve the workings of a flight planning room. We shall never know now shall we? What I saw horrified me, and not because I am a precious instructor but because I believed it to be completely detrimental to the teamwork required within the RAF. Everyone makes mistakes, if we are made to be afraid of honestly reporting mistakes then that is truly a dangerous road to be going down. In fact, one other LAC was validated at the same Unit, in the same discipline a day after being criticised for a very poor afternoons work which include many plotting errors! Strange indeed.

As to the other points raised.....

Yes I am still in the same job but no, I do not wonder why I haven't been picked up yet. I have a very good idea why I haven't been picked up yet!

Oh well

Think we can leave it all now?

Standards!

 

[Standards]

I don't know what is worse? That I am on here on a day off or that I am admitting to being on here on a day off?

Standards!

 

[A CLING NERD SHRON]

Someone please remind me what caused my divorce again. DT_Xtremez_14:

That affair you had with your WO's daughter perhaps?

 

[MeerKat]

I'm joining the debate late and therefore may be a bit behind the drag curve, but...

Just to play devils advocate, if individuals are allowed to 'stay nice and comfy' by staying to long at a trg school, so to keep them current they should be sent 'back to the front line'; can the reverse not be true - should those who spend too long on the front line be made to do an instructor tour to bring some of that current knowledge with them.

Also, on the point of ROs taking responsibility - oh hell yes. I've given out plenty of likely to becomes as and when the person has deserved it. Likewise, I've given out other types of rec for the same reasons - when the person deserves it. Sort of leading on from that thought, what do others think to the concept of not automatically upping the prom rec, just 'cos bloggs got X last year. To my mind the same principle should apply - grade the person accordingly.

Just my twopenneth

 

[The Ballerina]

Being an SAC(T) i can appreciate the bitterness of the JTs as they see SAC(T) being promoted just to prove a point. In my section we have not seen any as such but everybody heres the rumour of SAC(T) Bloggs and he/she may or not be deserving of the promotion. I have however seen a said JT banished to the lean team for gross uselesness only to be promoted because that was the latest FAD of the RAF. To better the situation the JT was also posted to Cosford only to be an instructor and pass on his wisedom to newly budding tradesmen. The fact that this airman was removed from the shop floor due to being useless at his trade is irrelevant. Therefore i believe that so long as the person is good at what they do give them the chance and when the next RAF fad comes along no matter how sh@t it might be do it.

 

[FormerFlake]

Also, on the point of ROs taking responsibility - oh hell yes. I've given out plenty of likely to becomes as and when the person has deserved it. Likewise, I've given out other types of rec for the same reasons - when the person deserves it. Sort of leading on from that thought, what do others think to the concept of not automatically upping the prom rec, just 'cos bloggs got X last year. To my mind the same principle should apply - grade the person accordingly.

Just my twopenneth

The whole numbers game is teribble, I was forced to mark people down by the 2nd RO so that they could show a gradual improvement from the first year in rank etc. Each report should be independent of the last.

The RAF reporting system is out dated and will never work. If people want promotion they should apply for it, the assumption that everybody want to climb through the ranks does no one any favours. Rather than the current promotion board just looking at reports (wEll bits of them for 2 minutes), send the individual down to them for a few days of assesment and interviews. You could then do away with PMA, who needs them? Do the Police have a PMA? No, but they have more people, diverse and specialist postings and so on.

 

[insideinfoman]

The other option is like the officers do once they get to a certain rank, they submit their CV for the job and if selected go for an interview.

It could also apply it to promotion as well and back up with a report from the OC Section/Wing. Oh isn't that like a Job Interview?

 

[juan kossof]

The other option is like the officers do once they get to a certain rank, they submit their CV for the job and if selected go for an interview.

It could also apply it to promotion as well and back up with a report from the OC Section/Wing. Oh isn't that like a Job Interview?

The problem with that is no one would apply for the crappy jobs and the drafter still has places to fill, also the person could still be awful at the job but just know how to write CVs and present themselves in interviews.
Maybe if the assessments were based purely on how good you were at your job and your ability to lead we might end up with better quality NCOs. Let's face it charity work and secondary duties are good for the corporate image but they very rarely benefit your place of work.
Maybe only considering people for promotion after a certain amount of time (5 years??) would provide the more experienced JNCO many seem to be craving.

 

[Donald Rumsfeld]

Juan.
Your comments about primary and secondarary duties are very valid and ring true but there is no escaping the fact that the latter are a very important part of the appraisial process. I do firmly belief that you should be promoted based on how good you are at the job, and indeed if you can show a diverse career pattern then all the better. Simple fact is that as a RO you have to look at a person and assess how and why they stand out from the crowd. This is where the secondarary duty is relevant and also a possible indicator of a persons talent and potential. For example when assessing 2 JNCOs of equal ability and professionalism you may find that their outside intrests indicate their potential. For example candidate A is Deputy Editor Station Magazine, Deputy Ents,Deputy tea bar treasurur etc. Wilst candidate B is NCO IC Station Football team, Ops Wing Social Fund treasuer, Chairman PTA, i'm sure you have my drift by now. Who then do the promotion board pick, based on leadership and management potential. I do believe that there is no other way, infoman alludes to a interview process, fair point but this has inherent faults and could be open to subjectivity on behalf of the interview panel. Lets face it the current system has faults, but is there a better way.
I now retire to the bunker and await the incoming....................

 

[Bluntend]

Secondary Duties demonstrate an individual's capacity to take on greater responsibilities over and above their Primary role and an individual's committment to the Service. Therefore, Secondary Duties are a good indicator of eligability for promotion if an individual is proving that they can perform their primary task with ease, whilst contributing to the Stn's community. This theory falls apart, however, when the secondary duty takes precidence over the primary. How often do we see people picked up because they have impressed their 1st, 2nd or 3rd RO through some sporting ability, been given a comendation or been awarded Stn or Cmd colours for one sport or another? IMHO, Secondary duties should only ever be considered by any promotion board if a candidate for promotion has proven complete competency at their trade and at their current level. You might be great at football but if you can't fix a jet or talk one down, you don't deserve promotion.

 

[juan kossof]

For example when assessing 2 JNCOs of equal ability and professionalism you may find that their outside intrests indicate their potential. For example candidate A is Deputy Editor Station Magazine, Deputy Ents,Deputy tea bar treasurur etc. Wilst candidate B is NCO IC Station Football team, Ops Wing Social Fund treasuer, Chairman PTA, i'm sure you have my drift by now. Who then do the promotion board pick, based on leadership and management potential. I now retire to the bunker and await the incoming....................

Surely with all those secondary duties the board should pick neither!!! When would they have time for their primary duties!!
I do think that everyone should have some sort of Secondary duty, after all if we stopped peope doing them the Air Force as we know it would grind to a halt.
The secondary duty one is an easy game to play, you get a few easy duties that you only need to turn up for a few times a year (Deputy to the Sif Reps Deputy for example) and get a good write up for something that you haven't done. On the other hand you have the guy who takes on too many duties gets snowed under and is unable to cope and then is marked down for having poor time management.
(this shouldn't happen but with I can guarantee it does!!)

 

[Flopsie]

No neeeeeed....

No neeeeeed....

Secondary Duties demonstrate an individual's capacity to take on greater responsibilities over and above their Primary role and an individual's committment to the Service.

OK, totally agree but what of the poor sods that are OOA most of the year or working their buns off in their primary role and don't the time or energy to do 'em. The RO's have a responsiblity to mention this in the 6000's. You can still be promoted if you do your primary task well enough. I did 5 years without one and still they gave me a crown, they're paying for it now of course.DT_Xtremez_35:

 

[FOMDude]

Personally, I see myself as a very honest report writer and mark as accurately as I can. This is for the benefit of my section and for TG9 as a whole.

The problem is all too often that the same standards are not kept throughout the trade. Granted, some SNCOs are not particularly adept at report writing, but at the end of the day we need to be honest about whether an individual is or is not ready for a recommendation for promotion. That way, we will invariably get our more 'experienced' JNCOs right?

I do not enjoy debriefing individuals and telling them that they are 'Likely to become Fit' but at the same time, I advise them on what they need to do to make themselves 'recommended'.

Most of the time they just shrug and mutter as they leave, but hey, it's not a popularity contest at the end of the day and I do not lose sleep over it. Too many times, individuals think they have a right to be recommended just because they have served for 3 years. How wrong!

In my eyes, JNCOs should be the eyes and ears and sharp end of the chain of command. What they say goes. No discussion. Sadly it just is not the case.

Now where's that application form........