The Use of Acting Rank

[muttywhitedog]

Fellow goaters, please offer me your opinion on this situation....

A section at my unit has 1 x SNCO, 1 x JNCO and 1 x Civvy. The SNCO is away, and the JNCO is receiving Subs Pay, however the JNCO has been asked why they are not A/Sgt.

As I see it, as there are no other military personnel in that section (the civvy reports to an officer), then there is no need for acting rank to maintain good order & discipline within that section, however my view is not shared by everyone - someone has said that this JNCO should get it because "it would look better on their assessment".

Thoughts please - am I right to say "no need"?

 

[Sniffer]

Are they covering the workload of the "missing" Sgt? If so then I would say give them a shot at wearing the rank. If they are good enough to be paid for the work (subs pay) then why not let them wear it.

Depending on your role, wearing that extra stripe can make life a whole lot easier sometimes. Its not all about good order and discipline.

Just make sure the person is aware that they will prob end up paying mess bills. They might think twice about wanting to wear it then.

 

[Dragoon]

I thought it was a case of you would do the job of the rank you were acting, but you could either wear the rank and keep your pay, or have the pay but not the rank.

I had acting Cpl twice in my time, but I was told they could not justify the pay increase, so I got the rank.

I'd have taken the rank over the pay anyway, it was a marginal increase over what I was currently earning, and it felt an damn site better having those chevrons on my shoulders, people were talking to me like I wasn't a child all of a sudden!

 

[muttywhitedog]

I had acting Cpl twice in my time, but I was told they could not justify the pay increase, so I got the rank.

and in both instances were you still the only blue suit in the section, or did you actually have personnel to manage?

If its the former, on what grounds was the application worded?

Dont get me wrong - I fully support this individual getting paid for doing the job of the absent SNCO, but I cannot for the life of me see why they need the rank when there will be no other blue suits in the direct chain of command. There are other JNCOs within the section, but they all come under the command & control of other section SNCOs, who are all at work. This particular JNCO is in a small specialist sub-section of 3 personnel.

I've advised this JNCO that if they feel that strongly about it, then get their Flt Cdr to submit the application through the OC Wg for their call, and if they support it, then I'll happily let them buy me a pint in the old folks' home!

 

[Downsizer]

There should only be acting rank if they are to carry out tasks that require an increase in rank, otherwise it's substitution pay all the way. If there is no specific SNCO only tasks then there is no justification for acting rank.

 

[The Masked Geek]

If there is no specific SNCO only tasks then there is no justification for acting rank.

If there were no SNCO only tasks, then the section wouldn't be scaled for an SNCO.

Every Cpl that is sent out into industry from the Typhoon MSC used to get A/Sgt rank as a matter of course and they had Zero other blue suits to worry about.

When I was down the Falklands, my Cpl received A/Sgt and there were plenty of other Sgts around but he was in a "specialist team of three".....

I think the OP is being a little disingenuous and merely wishes to keep the lad out of his mess.....

 

[Downsizer]

If there were no SNCO only tasks, then the section wouldn't be scaled for an SNCO.Every Cpl that is sent out into industry from the Typhoon MSC used to get A/Sgt rank as a matter of course and they had Zero other blue suits to worry about.When I was down the Falklands, my Cpl received A/Sgt and there were plenty of other Sgts around but he was in a "specialist team of three".....I think the OP is being a little disingenuous and merely wishes to keep the lad out of his mess.....

I probably didn't word my reply very clearly....Where I work there are jobs that only an SNCO can sign. So if I went OOA one of the Cpls would have to be made up, if there are no jobs that only an SNCO can sign for then my understanding is that substitution pay should be the "reward" as they can do the job as a Cpl. I'm sure I've been shown that in a JSP, but buggered if I know which....

 

[True Blue Jack]

I probably didn't word my reply very clearly....Where I work there are jobs that only an SNCO can sign. So if I went OOA one of the Cpls would have to be made up, if there are no jobs that only an SNCO can sign for then my understanding is that substitution pay should be the "reward" as they can do the job as a Cpl. I'm sure I've been shown that in a JSP, but buggered if I know which....

That is exactly as it should be. Unfortunately, there are many out there who overuse acting rank to the point its meaning is devalued for those who actually require it. I also think it offers false hope of substantive promotion, particularly at a time when promotion figures are deflated.

 

[The Masked Geek]

Fair shout but there are many reasons to justify A/Sgt rank.

One of which is the fact (as unpalatable as it is) that a Sgt will garner more respect in dealings with outside agencies than a Cpl. I used to liaise regularly with Sqn Ldr - Gp Capt both domestic and out in Eurofighter. As a Sgt and with people who didn't know me, I was listened to more than when I was in those same meetings as a Cpl.

Sgt confers a perceived level of knowledge and experience which is invaluable when attempting to sway opinion. I don't like it but that's the way it is.


Let's take the example of that GSS FS who thought he knew about Oracle at Coningsby, he has admitted (albeit not to me) that he knew he was wrong and was just being a bellend because I'd QORed his ass. The trouble I had was that his boss took his side even when presented with the Oracle White Paper that laid down exactly how it worked................ And there is one example of the failure of TG4, a peanut with no fcuking idea and no concept of the damage his p1ssy little childish outbursts do to progress. More rank does not mean more knowledge, in some cases, much less............

But I digress. DT_Xtremez_30:

 

[rugby then work]

Applications for acting rank and substitution pay are completely separate and you can be awarded either or both. Unpaid Acting Higher Rank (AHR) is approved at unit level by the Station Commander (often delegated to OC Admin) once approved it should promulgated in SROs. Substitution pay is applied for via a JPA form and must be iaw JSP 754 Ch 3 Sect 8 (it does state in there that Substitution pay is not an alternative to AHR).Both basically require the individual to undertake the duties of the higher rank (although the AHR requirements are more flexible).

 

[clungemobile]

Just noticed that you have to do the first 21 duty days out of the first 35 calendar days to qualify...Anyhow, only if he is assuming all the responsibilities for Disciplinary, Management and Supervisory Purposes should he (and others) get acting rank (and SUPA).Obviously you have to ensure the have a current promotion assessment of at least recommended/yes and you shouldn't award acting rank if he/she is not qualified for promotion.

 

[gemarriott]

I'm with downsizer on this. Back when Pontius was a pilot I got substitution pay to Cpl as the Squadron was 1 Cpl light on establishment, I only had it for about 3 months when my chief argued the tosss and got me made up special acting, so I could sign seat vitals.

 

[Barch]

In all my years the only time I saw acting rank was:
Police acting Corporal.
PTI acting Corporal.
People between GST courses and TMT courses.
When an established post wasn't filled for 3 months and wasn't likely to be filled for at least 6 months.

 

[muttywhitedog]

Thanks for your inputs so far. There are no specific roles in this section that only the SNCO can do, and if he is away, the JNCO has to go elsewhere on unit for a SNCO signature, so there is no impact, like there would be on a Sqn, where job cards needed to be signed by a SNCO.

It has now been batted back to the Flt Cdr to speak with the Sqn Cdr regarding the matter, and if they press on with it, how they can word the application that this section cannot possibly function with a JNCO and an E2, and it must be a SNCO - particularly as it was their decision to release the SNCO for other duties in the first place.

 

[busby1971]

Acting rank should only be given if required for the position, handing it out as a nicety does no one any favours and cheapens the rank.

Money covers for the additional work and doing a good job provides the individual the opportunity to prove they can operate at the next level as far as any Promotion Board should care.

Whilst the individual may feel good wearing the rank how are they going to react when it goes and true promotion may not be forthcoming for many a reason.

 

[Rocket_Ronster]

Whilst the individual may feel good wearing the rank how are they going to react when it goes and true promotion may not be forthcoming for many a reason.

Thats the point ain`t it ?
If he`s required to be A/Sgt then he`s qualified and capable to be a `proper` Sgt. If he`s not upto the job, for one of the "many a reason", then the RAF should either get someone in that is fit for duty, or not post away the existing SNCO.

 

[pie sandwich]

So if I have read this correctly, Cpl is now doing a Sgt's job ( well covering for him ) so where is the harm is giving him the acting rank.

Providing this guy is not a kn0b then where is the harm. IF he is a good cpl then having him as a acting Sgt will only do his career good, and also in these times it will boost is confidence that the people in power have seen the need and recognised it, and rewarded it by saying your a good egg and therefore here is a third stripe to cover the other while he is gone.

 

[Drill Bit]

Thats the point ain`t it ?
If he`s required to be A/Sgt then he`s qualified and capable to be a `proper` Sgt. If he`s not upto the job, for one of the "many a reason", then the RAF should either get someone in that is fit for duty, or not post away the existing SNCO.

If only real life was just as black and white.

 

[muttywhitedog]

Ok, so supposing they go against my advice and give this individual acting rank to sit at the same desk supervising precisely nobody. How does an RO big that up?

Cpl X was awarded local A/Sgt rank for 3 months, and although they had no JNCOs to oversee, they did a cracking job in the absence of the SNCO where the high level of service was maintained.

or

Cpl X has the potential for advancement, as was clearly demonstrated when they stood in for their absent SNCO for 3 months of this reporting period. Although not awarded A/Sgt rank due to a lack of subordinates, there was no drop in the level of service provided by the office.

In the first example, the RO will have to give a specific example as to how the individual performed in the higher rank, which will be ranked against how other personnel of that rank & trade carried out their A/rank duties. I feel that this is where they will shoot themselves in the foot, as there will be no SNCO supervision and JNCO development going on in that section.

 

[raflad67]

There seems no reason to give the rank as there are no supervisory/discipline reasons etc

SUPA is sufficient.

DT_Xtremez_14: