Viable Trade

[busby1971]

Adminers only please

With a SAC manning figure of 85%, an unheard of FMDL restriction placed on Sgt rank at 90% and a recruiting figure projected to be 26% of target is our trade heading for a crash?

This after a JPA reduction in trade of 30% and years of disestablishments, now that we need to get people in we are not and those that are in are walking due to the dire straights, where are we heading?

Your thoughts please, positive and negative.

 

[Gillo]

Adminers only please

With a SAC manning figure of 85%, an unheard of FMDL restriction placed on Sgt rank at 90% and a recruiting figure projected to be 26% of target is our trade heading for a crash?

This after a JPA reduction in trade of 30% and years of disestablishments, now that we need to get people in we are not and those that are in are walking due to the dire straights, where are we heading?

Your thoughts please, positive and negative.

Welcome to the real world apart from not going outside the wire on Det.

PS. Bet you have still got loads of cushy posts overseas.
PPS. Not trying to start a fight but try looking in the mirror first before you start moaning.

 

[tommo9999]

Welcome to the real world apart from not going outside the wire on Det. So no TG17 go outside the wire then? Balls.

PS. Bet you have still got loads of cushy posts overseas. Where exactly? I'd be interested to know.
PPS. Not trying to start a fight but try looking in the mirror first before you start moaning. So your trade has imposed a FMDL at Sgt rank has it? FMDL should be held at base rank and exceptionally at the next rank. Not miss a rank and then impose one.

The points made in the original post are valid, and worrying. No other trade had a 40% (Incl JPA 10% stretch target) reduction imposed on them, and then asked to provide an enhanced service due to JPA. I agree that we are all suffering 'cos we simply don't have enough people, but your comments are ill-informed and frankly inaccurate.

 

[SgtScribbly]

a good start would be to stop working outside our remit by giving every tom, dick and 'arry advice on their allowances. all too often non clerks will not even bother to read a jsp "cos they aint got time" and just go and ask their adminer. even though they are certifying that they have read and understood the jsp when they put their claims in, a massive % have never even looked through the regs

how often have you heard the phrase "well i asked psf and they said i could claim it" (although i am sure this is the stock response when they get caught out)

the jsp says something along the lines of "units staffs are to ensure these regulations are made available to all", and that they are to remind personnel of their entitlements

stick the link to the jsp on scrolling news once a month and lets get on with doing our proper job!

 

[MontyPlumbs]

a good start would be to stop working outside our remit by giving every tom, dick and 'arry advice on their allowances. all too often non clerks will not even bother to read a jsp "cos they aint got time" and just go and ask their adminer. even though they are certifying that they have read and understood the jsp when they put their claims in, a massive % have never even looked through the regs

how often have you heard the phrase "well i asked psf and they said i could claim it" (although i am sure this is the stock response when they get caught out)

the jsp says something along the lines of "units staffs are to ensure these regulations are made available to all", and that they are to remind personnel of their entitlements

stick the link to the jsp on scrolling news once a month and lets get on with doing our proper job!

I don' think they like to advertise what we can and can't claim too much - knowledge is power!

With all the other p1sh the RAF has me doing, I haven't got the time, nor the inclination to go wading through pages of the most boring books ever devised. I prefer to ask the SMEs, i.e. the clerks.

 

[Talk Wrench]

Okay, I know this is shineys only, BUT,


Whilst the desk jockeys get slated on a regular basis, the fact is, they are needed.

I left the mighty RAF in 2002 and foresaw the demise of the admin trade with the spectacle which became JPA.

The only thing JPA has achieved from an outside point of view is the realisation that shiney types are integral to the smooth running of Royal Air Force ops, be it here or in sandier climes.

As an engineer when I was in the mil and now outside the mil, we need guys and gals like you. And why?

Because it allows us to focus on our own jobs, knowing that we have full support from our friends and colleagues in equally important roles.


Sorry for trolling on this one.



TW

 

[SgtScribbly]

I don' think they like to advertise what we can and can't claim too much - knowledge is power!

With all the other p1sh the RAF has me doing, I haven't got the time, nor the inclination to go wading through pages of the most boring books ever devised. I prefer to ask the SMEs, i.e. the clerks.

thanks monty, i think you just proved my point

we aint the SMEs, allowances are personal responsibilty, the JSPs are not owned by the clerks, they are for everyones use


let me give you an example, you go into psf and ask the clerk "can i claim xyz?" they look a bit blank for a moment, but then respond with a confident "yes, no problems, stick your claim in on JPA and bobs your uncle, beer chits for you"

so you go back to your work (or you do it in PSF and have to clerk watch over you even) and stick you claim in for xyz. you then get pinged for an audit - and after a bit of a more careful look in to what you have claimed it is decided that you arent entitled.

is there any comeback on the clerk? no because when you put a claim in, you tick a box to signify that youve read and understood the relevant regs.

in the extreme, should you be done for putting in a dodgy claim?

 

[Martin Blank]

Welcome to our world GTM forcast 80% manning
1 intake into trade training last year for an 18mth course about 30 if they all get through
decimated TG5/6 through redundencies based on a flawed manpower plot devised by some Orificer on his 2 yearly f#ck factor look at me trip
current manpower hemoraging like a heamophiliac who's just sliced his femoral
thank god there are still some of you to help us when our JPA training falls short....DT_Xtremez_28:

 

[Talk Wrench]

current manpower hemoraging like a heamophiliac who's just sliced his femoral

Not sure about your analogy there MB.

Haemorage and haemophiliac don't go hand in hand.

Or was that your point?


And having re-read it, yes it was your point!!


TW

 

[MontyPlumbs]

thanks monty, i think you just proved my point

we aint the SMEs, allowances are personal responsibilty, the JSPs are not owned by the clerks, they are for everyones use


let me give you an example, you go into psf and ask the clerk "can i claim xyz?" they look a bit blank for a moment, but then respond with a confident "yes, no problems, stick your claim in on JPA and bobs your uncle, beer chits for you"

so you go back to your work (or you do it in PSF and have to clerk watch over you even) and stick you claim in for xyz. you then get pinged for an audit - and after a bit of a more careful look in to what you have claimed it is decided that you arent entitled.

is there any comeback on the clerk? no because when you put a claim in, you tick a box to signify that youve read and understood the relevant regs.

in the extreme, should you be done for putting in a dodgy claim?

I'm wouldn't blame the clerks if I'd been caught out submitting a dodgy claim, I certainly wouldn't shift the blame onto the clerks if a claim was found to be invalid. However, back in the real world, what is more efficient, asking a clerk who can usually give you a response (based on extensive experience) in about 5 seconds, or trawling through the JSP yourself attempting to decipher the decidedly ambiguous wording for eligibility? What happens if you cannot understand what the JSP is telling you? You ask the admin guys for clarification, so time wasted anyway.

I'm not knocking the trade, bar a few throbbers I think TG17 does a great job, but please understand the rest of the RAF has enough on it's plate without wading through pages of meaningless rubbish to claim £3.20 for a missed meal.

One thing I think we all agree on, clerk or not, is that JPA and the allowance system is clunky, overly-complex and it's just a matter of time before someone gets into trouble for fraud when they've (mistakenly) claimed in good faith.

Ho hum, months to do, so back to the real world - such crap isn't even an issue. DT_Xtremez_26:

 

[SgtScribbly]

bear with me monty, i aint having a pop at you,

what is more efficient, asking a clerk who can usually give you a response (based on extensive experience) in about 5 seconds, or trawling through the JSP yourself attempting to decipher the decidedly ambiguous wording for eligibility? What happens if you cannot understand what the JSP is telling you? You ask the admin guys for clarification, so time wasted anyway.

its not very efficient for the clerk, having to do something he isnt suppose to do, and therefore having to what he is suppose to do another time (quite often working longer hours than scheduled). a massive % of clerks wont say no if someone comes asking, because thats the way they are.

I'm not knocking the trade, bar a few throbbers I think TG17 does a great job, but please understand the rest of the RAF has enough on it's plate without wading through pages of meaningless rubbish to claim £3.20 for a missed meal.

these clerks are real busy too, and have got enough on their plates, without reading stuff for you. and if its that meaningless, dont bother claiming it

what i am getting at as well, is because so many regs have changed, you stand a very good chance that you will get duff gen anyways!

give us our 30% of people back (they can have the extra 10% as a goodwill gesture to all) and we will happily take (back) on the responsibility of assisting individuals with their personal claims.

 

[MontyPlumbs]

Fair point, your last sentence sums it all up for me. I think we are both saying the same thing in essence, just coming from opposite perspectives ("customer" and clerk!).

Admin, like everything else in the RAF, has been whittled down to the bone, good effort on the part of the Airships.

I'll butt out now and let you shinies have your forum back! DT_Xtremez_28:

 

[Humble Scribe]

Welcome to the real world apart from not going outside the wire on Det.

PS. Bet you have still got loads of cushy posts overseas.
PPS. Not trying to start a fight but try looking in the mirror first before you start moaning.

You just had to butt into a Shiney thread didn't you Gillo and as usual you're searching for a bite which Tommo oblidged you with!! As a Stacker who has just seen the light and worked in the Shiney world for 3 years (on a Gucci overseas posting!) you should appreciate just how difficult our job is looking after all those nasty people from NATO who interupt our compulsory PT and luncheon's with trivial queries which you know you're not entitled to anyway! Now get back to your Stackering and get those helicopters refueled like the glorified petrol pump attendant you are!!

 

[fed_up_scribbly]

Now is the time for the Trade Sponsor to stick his head above the parapet and say that we cannot do the job we are required to do without the resources. Something has got to change and change soon. People are getting tired of the constant struggle to provide a good service. I am convinced that we are very near breaking point and unless somebody takes some radical action soon, then I am afraid that my answer is no, we won't be viable as a trade.

Customers have also got to accept the fact that JPA is here to stay and all their bitching and moaning isn't going to change it. My staff were spending huge amounts of time answering questions on how to submit claims on JPA, what am I entitled to etc until it got to the point where I had to stop it - I do not run a JPA helpdesk. FFS, the system is over 2 years old now - there is simply no excuse for anybody not knowing the fundamentals of JPA by now. If people can't be a*sed to read the self-service guides and the JSP then that is their own problem, not mine. To describe the JSP as "meaningless" when it puts money in your pocket is probably the most idiotic statement I have read in a long while and basically sums up the unwillingness of people to accept the responsibilities they have been given.

 

[Humble Scribe]

I think that if the trade was going to crash & burn it would have done so 2 years ago when JPA was introduced; it didn't and IMHO that was due, mainly, to the guys & gals on the shop floor who worked tirelessly to ensure that a service was maintained as best we could whilst we were still learning the intracacies of JPA at the same time. I do not think that enough credit has been given to those personnel at the JR level who quickly grasped the proverbial bull by the horns and dragged the olds & bolds into the new era; it is down to these guys that the trade still has a future.

It took a while but before too long it was realised that the implementation of JPA was a complete horlicks and action was taken to train the scribblies in the humble art of JPA and I believe that, given an increase in manpower, we could provide the service that most people out there want from us and that we as a trade group want to provide for others. As the increase in manpower is about as likely as petrol prices plummeting, we now need to revisit the issue of training everyone else to use JPA properly. There are lots of user guides, on-line training etc available for personnel to use but the majority can't be bothered, or more likely, haven't got the time to undertake the self help training. I don't have the answer to this conundrum but if it was achieved then we as a trade could move on from JPA user issues and start using the system to it's full potential.

So to answer the initial question, No I don't believe that the trade is heading for a crash indeed it did very well to avoid one not so long ago but until time/training/willingness to learn has been addressed we can't really move on to a more productive era.

 

[The Sleepy Priest]

Welcome to the real world apart from not going outside the wire on Det.

PS. Bet you have still got loads of cushy posts overseas.
PPS. Not trying to start a fight but try looking in the mirror first before you start moaning.

Gillo, you're talking out of your hoop. I recently came back from a det to Basra that involved me as a TG17 going outside of the wire to provide force protection to the section I was working in.

 

[Robby]

Whilst not an adminer just a simple stacker, I have tried to read your JSP's and they are just as bad as ours, open to interpretation- as are ours. Ask any SNCO when he last read the Supply JSP on Inventory management- a pound to a penny he has never even looked at it, he relies on the Suppliers to advise and guide him - thats our job!

Another problem you have which I accept is that the regulations change so often we and you cant keep up, look at the Council Tax rebate allowance, I have read the regulation three time but I still don't know how to input it myself, in deed my PSF staff are still working on the rebate, these changes are quickly announced and then we all have to struggle to claim them.

Finally I believe the main problem here is that the training offered for both JPA and SJAR is worse than useless - in fact it follows on from the abysmal LITS training, computer based training has never worked successfully in my experience. Asking busy servicemen to spare two or three hours to work through a computer based training sylabus is a non starter, for example you learn about disturbance allowance and then don't touch it again for 5 years - then guess what you can't remember how to claim it and the JSP does not include an idiots guide - so you ask your friendly PSF staff!DT_Xtremez_28:

 

[busby1971]

Not on topic

Not on topic

This is thread about whether or not the trade can be sustained and has a future, it is not about whether or not clks should do 'your' personal administration.

I like many clks never minded and still don't mind helping out others with their claims but we now have 40% less clks who are no longer employed to do this and in the main are busy doing other things.

I don't ask a supplier to deliver my amazon things nor do I ask a chef to come round my house to cook my tea and be served by a steward, in addition to their normal duties. I might ask a MT Tech to have a look at my car, but he'll charge me a beer or two for it. This arguement is for another topic, I think a thread has been started already so go there.

 

[Albert Park]

I like many clks never minded and still don't mind helping out others with their claims but we now have 40% less clks who are no longer employed to do this and in the main are busy doing other things.

I don't ask a supplier to deliver my amazon things nor do I ask a chef to come round my house to cook my tea and be served by a steward, in addition to their normal duties. I might ask a MT Tech to have a look at my car, but he'll charge me a beer or two for it.

Team player - nice to see. You'll go far.

 

[Gillo]

You just had to butt into a Shiney thread didn't you Gillo and as usual you're searching for a bite which Tommo oblidged you with!! As a Stacker who has just seen the light and worked in the Shiney world for 3 years (on a Gucci overseas posting!) you should appreciate just how difficult our job is looking after all those nasty people from NATO who interupt our compulsory PT and luncheon's with trivial queries which you know you're not entitled to anyway! Now get back to your Stackering and get those helicopters refueled like the glorified petrol pump attendant you are!!

Cheers easy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why not employ a few Poles from NATO to help out in handbreak house and bring in some effeciency for a change. DT_Xtremez_28: