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See above,
See above,
The defence rests.
See above,
The defence rests.
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Fine, I`ll apologise for the language, but believe me I am passionate about the trade and the RAF. But I do believe that TG4 is the result of people feeling the need to institute some new program in order to get promoted. Then they move on and we are left to deal with the aftermath.
Even the name changed so many times no one knew what to call us. Finally ending up as ICT Technician ... presumably to align us with civilian business and attract recruits. Well ICT in the commercial world is old hat now.
As for you stating the "defence rests" ... seeing as you started this topic,
what exactly is your idea for making the trade better ?
And if you are looking for ideas on here does that (by extension) therefore confirm that there is something seriously wrong with the trade.
The Queens reserve the right to recall the witness ....
Even the name changed so many times no one knew what to call us. Finally ending up as ICT Technician ... presumably to align us with civilian business and attract recruits. Well ICT in the commercial world is old hat now.
As for you stating the "defence rests" ... seeing as you started this topic,
what exactly is your idea for making the trade better ?
And if you are looking for ideas on here does that (by extension) therefore confirm that there is something seriously wrong with the trade.
The Queens reserve the right to recall the witness ....
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Give all SAC(T)s a 4th prop when they are trained up fully as Radar and Communication Techs after completing there CN 4001 and with 18 months experience at a Radar/Comms Unit. I.e Ground Radio, Spades, AD Units, 1AACC.
Distinguish this experience by calling them a new Rank such as Junior Technician. This will highlight the best from the rest.
DT_Xtremez_30:
Distinguish this experience by calling them a new Rank such as Junior Technician. This will highlight the best from the rest.
DT_Xtremez_30:mis understanding?
mis understanding?
I believe the 4001 course is being questioned as is does not fully prepare someone to do the radar courses. Doesn't cover some of the TG5 aspects that we cover?
not sure where this leaves them? But I know it leaves us old school queens to cover the Radar Dets.
Just another example of why they should have asked us these questions 5 years ago, instead of telling us to like it or jump ship.
mis understanding?
Give all SAC(T)s a 4th prop when they are trained up fully as Radar and Communication Techs after completing there CN 4001 and with 18 months experience at a Radar/Comms Unit. I.e Ground Radio, Spades, AD Units, 1AACC.
Distinguish this experience by calling them a new Rank such as Junior Technician. This will highlight the best from the rest.
I believe the 4001 course is being questioned as is does not fully prepare someone to do the radar courses. Doesn't cover some of the TG5 aspects that we cover?
not sure where this leaves them? But I know it leaves us old school queens to cover the Radar Dets.
Just another example of why they should have asked us these questions 5 years ago, instead of telling us to like it or jump ship.
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Yes but as mere highly intelligent Techs Mug we fail to see the "Bigger Picture".
How dare we stand against people's personal agendas and there promotions.....tsskkk!!!
How dare we stand against people's personal agendas and there promotions.....tsskkk!!!
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First, thank you for your apology. By virtue of the fact that you chose to comment on this particular thread is an indication to me that you have a passionate view.
It should be no surprise to find that I too have feelings for the way the trade has been distorted. You need look no further than the team who pushed for the change to identify possible culprits. Just a pity they could not be called forward to give evidence!!
As for the 'new programme for promotion' comment. Couldn't agree more. But this trend is not a new one and has proved to be a 'get you noticed' stunt for many an 'every two year posting' candidate. Normally in these situations a new face arrives and reverts to the old way (as the the old seemed to be working!)
Having said that, my solution would be to revert back to two trades and introduce a third (TG4). Invite those who want to change to compete! ,yes compete! for positions in an interview process in order to capture the right people for the job, and phase out the other trades once the legacy equipment drops off the radar (like the pun?). Which lets face it, isnt any time soon for one of the two perspective legacy trades.
It takes a big individual to admit mistakes! A blinkered approach to decision making is a bad thing!
quote: 'Money will determine whether the accused goes to prison or walks out of the courtroom a free man.'
Well I am amazed :raf:
Despite our initial locking of horns ...
Finally someone with sense. For years I`ve said, have TG3 & TG11, leave the riggers in TG5 where the were quite content and didn`t have their prom boards messed up. Open TG4 to all. There are RAFP compusec guys who love that kind of stuff, and cooks (sorry Chefs) who are complete geeks spend time at home networking 5hit. There are also ex TG3 types who hate the thought of sitting on a helpdesk or adding printers or setting up e-mail accounts for ludites. So by all means have Eng Tech EL and Eng Tech IT. Because at the moment people who don`t know Ohms law but can spot a problem with a subnet mask aren`t a huge help ...
Despite our initial locking of horns ...
Finally someone with sense. For years I`ve said, have TG3 & TG11, leave the riggers in TG5 where the were quite content and didn`t have their prom boards messed up. Open TG4 to all. There are RAFP compusec guys who love that kind of stuff, and cooks (sorry Chefs) who are complete geeks spend time at home networking 5hit. There are also ex TG3 types who hate the thought of sitting on a helpdesk or adding printers or setting up e-mail accounts for ludites. So by all means have Eng Tech EL and Eng Tech IT. Because at the moment people who don`t know Ohms law but can spot a problem with a subnet mask aren`t a huge help ...
Well...
Well...
Well, Gentlemen - a hot topic.
Whilst I would agree with some of the sentiments expressed, we will not (IMHO) be reverting or creating new trades.
As my dad always said; "Hindsight is just another way of making you look stupid!"
Looking back (and being stupid), the TG4 instigators (now in the main, out of the picture) have thrown the spanners (good TG5 ref there!) in the works and walked away. That leaves us with what we've got to roll forward... maybe that should be crawl forward.
Would love everybody to have more training - as for the fourth propellor idea, genius! Promote that man!DT_Xtremez_30:
Trouble with training is - it costs!DT_Xtremez_42:
Agree that the majority of TG3 (and some of the new boys as well) do not want to sit on a helpdesk, whether it's in the UK or anywhere else. Some people want to break things and fix them again - although apart from one or two jobs, this is becoming a thing of the past.
Again, IMHO, I think part of the problem is that the RAF was sold TG4 on the back of the removal of legacy (sorry, it's enduring capability now isn't it?) equipment. As far as I can see a large amount of this kit is still with us and as there's no money anywhere (they'd rather send me in a hire car than let me go on the train!!!), it'll be with us for a while longer. Who's going to fix it when all TG3 has PVR'd due to being sat on a helpdesk?
Sorry, I'm rambling...
Whilst there are lots of questions and arguments about how we will carry on, I don't see anyone giving us any resources (time/people/money) to do it with. Sorry for the pessimist attitude, but I think you'll have to live (and work) with what you've got.
Here the harbinger of doom will finish...DT_Xtremez_06:
As for good ideas... liked the one about TG4 working for the RAF when DII rolls in (eventually)!
That, and a 4th propeller blade, and I'll die happy!
Well...
Well, Gentlemen - a hot topic.
Whilst I would agree with some of the sentiments expressed, we will not (IMHO) be reverting or creating new trades.
As my dad always said; "Hindsight is just another way of making you look stupid!"
Looking back (and being stupid), the TG4 instigators (now in the main, out of the picture) have thrown the spanners (good TG5 ref there!) in the works and walked away. That leaves us with what we've got to roll forward... maybe that should be crawl forward.
Would love everybody to have more training - as for the fourth propellor idea, genius! Promote that man!
DT_Xtremez_30:Trouble with training is - it costs!
DT_Xtremez_42:Agree that the majority of TG3 (and some of the new boys as well) do not want to sit on a helpdesk, whether it's in the UK or anywhere else. Some people want to break things and fix them again - although apart from one or two jobs, this is becoming a thing of the past.
Again, IMHO, I think part of the problem is that the RAF was sold TG4 on the back of the removal of legacy (sorry, it's enduring capability now isn't it?) equipment. As far as I can see a large amount of this kit is still with us and as there's no money anywhere (they'd rather send me in a hire car than let me go on the train!!!), it'll be with us for a while longer. Who's going to fix it when all TG3 has PVR'd due to being sat on a helpdesk?
Sorry, I'm rambling...
Whilst there are lots of questions and arguments about how we will carry on, I don't see anyone giving us any resources (time/people/money) to do it with. Sorry for the pessimist attitude, but I think you'll have to live (and work) with what you've got.
Here the harbinger of doom will finish...
DT_Xtremez_06:As for good ideas... liked the one about TG4 working for the RAF when DII rolls in (eventually)!
That, and a 4th propeller blade, and I'll die happy!
Here is my input. Give everyone a decent amount of trade training to start with, ending in a nice 4 bladed prop. Those that want to do a bit shorter training can have a 3 bladed prop and come back latter to do the extra and get their 4th blade.
Then let those that want to geek on helpdesk's and with computers geek. Let's call them IT Techs.
Find those that want to fix things and work on voltages that do a bit more than tingle, work on those things like RADARS and Transmitters and Nav Aids lets call them Eng Techs. If there are civvys doing serviceman' jobs meaning not enough posts to make a valid trade then get rid of the civvys.
Oh and I nearly forgot those that just want to operate let them go and operate the communication devices we could call the m Communications Operators.
Then let those that want to geek on helpdesk's and with computers geek. Let's call them IT Techs.
Find those that want to fix things and work on voltages that do a bit more than tingle, work on those things like RADARS and Transmitters and Nav Aids lets call them Eng Techs. If there are civvys doing serviceman' jobs meaning not enough posts to make a valid trade then get rid of the civvys.
Oh and I nearly forgot those that just want to operate let them go and operate the communication devices we could call the m Communications Operators.
3OCLOCKFINISH
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People need to accept the fact that *some* ex11 have no interest in fixing things or learning how they work, in much the same way that *some* ex3 have no interest in having meticulous paperwork and making things appear all spangly and perfect.
I'm in the latter camp
I have met plenty of people who obviously cannot be stereotyped but a stereotype is just that for a reason!
By all means call us the one trade name but keep us separate within that, have the Ab Initios trained at ex3 level but also with the ability to do either job.
I'm in the latter camp
I have met plenty of people who obviously cannot be stereotyped but a stereotype is just that for a reason!
By all means call us the one trade name but keep us separate within that, have the Ab Initios trained at ex3 level but also with the ability to do either job.
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DT_Xtremez_06:
People need to accept the fact that *some* ex11 have no interest in fixing things or learning how they work, in much the same way that *some* ex3 have no interest in having meticulous paperwork and making things appear all spangly and perfect.
I'm in the latter camp
I have met plenty of people who obviously cannot be stereotyped but a stereotype is just that for a reason!
By all means call us the one trade name but keep us separate within that, have the Ab Initios trained at ex3 level but also with the ability to do either job.
Thanks for your input, I appreciate the fact that 'Latter Camp Goats' are also voicing their opinions. I too believe that separation still exists in TG4 in a sense that since your 12 week intense rise to stardom you are still incapable of manning posts that require technical knowledge. Which bodes the question why did you do it in the first place!! I'm sure some of the Ex TG3 boys would relish not having to fly to Falklands as frequently to man radar dets now that we are all the same!
Just while we are on the subject I cant wait till I get posted to a position of custodian!
3OCLOCKFINISH
Corporal
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Thanks for your input, I appreciate the fact that 'Latter Camp Goats' are also voicing their opinions. I too believe that separation still exists in TG4 in a sense that since your 12 week intense rise to stardom you are still incapable of manning posts that require technical knowledge. Which bodes the question why did you do it in the first place!! I'm sure some of the Ex TG3 boys would relish not having to fly to Falklands as frequently to man radar dets now that we are all the same!
Just while we are on the subject I cant wait till I get posted to a position of custodian!
12 week rise to stardom?!
3 week journey to hell more like!
An example.
Twp Cpls, one ex3 and one ex11. One was posted to GRMS, the other to an IT role. Guess which way round the posting went? Yup ex11 to GRMS, ex3 to the IT role. Can you guess what happened after a month?...
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12 week rise to stardom?!
3 week journey to hell more like!
An example.
Twp Cpls, one ex3 and one ex11. One was posted to GRMS, the other to an IT role. Guess which way round the posting went? Yup ex11 to GRMS, ex3 to the IT role. Can you guess what happened after a month?...
Indeed. An example of how this is not working all too well (the amalgamation i mean). I know it is here and here to stay (as so many people keep eluding to). I would love to know how much it cost to put everyone through training. The powers that be could have saved a lot of money and time by not doing it in the first place (GEM but after the horse has bolted).
anyone got the balls!
anyone got the balls!
Said before about how much time (manhours) and money the pointless assim program cost. Oh and of course it put paid to the prospect of any redundancies, while the trade was being reviewed.
I know it has been done to death but why not grow a pair and admit it would be best as 2 trades?
Stop all the mess and people can get on with life!
Then we could all see the turn around times for us TG3 lot and also the training burden faced by all the PET/PDT courses, instead of everything getting watered down and averaged out?
anyone got the balls!
Said before about how much time (manhours) and money the pointless assim program cost. Oh and of course it put paid to the prospect of any redundancies, while the trade was being reviewed.
I know it has been done to death but why not grow a pair and admit it would be best as 2 trades?
Stop all the mess and people can get on with life!
Then we could all see the turn around times for us TG3 lot and also the training burden faced by all the PET/PDT courses, instead of everything getting watered down and averaged out?