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Flt Ops Officers, a positive view

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Yet more bitter and twisted views from the people who claim to be the core of the ops branch. I have worked with more poor FOMs than Ops Os, and at least the Ops Os can claim inexperience. How can FOMs who have been in for 15 years + still be useless?

I have seen cases were the old experienced FOMs have done more damage than the new inexperienced Ops O to. There are too many old Sgts out there who know they will never get promoted and resist change so much they are giving the branch a bad name. All the Ops O I have worked with are all open to new ideas and want to see the branch improve and modernise, can't say the same about all the FOMs.

Maybe some of the older FOMs are getting worried? Feeeling inseucre? I have been lucky to work with some of the younger FOMs, and they have a hell of a lot to offer. With a few more people like these and some early retirements from the old crusties there is hope.
 
HP says
AVOs are doing a good job in control rooms
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I just wet myself!!! :D

Actually you are probably right, they could do less damage down in Station Ops, I think?
 
Retard Retard said:
HP says

I just wet myself!
Click to expand...

Congratulations! You have just passed the selection test as an AVO. I am not suggesting that some of these elderly gentlemen have any kind of bladder weakness, however.....
 
I just wet myself

Congratulations! You have just passed the selection test as an AVO

Hmm............true.............but I don't smell of digestive biscuits!! :p
 
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FormerFlake said:
Yet more bitter and twisted views from the people who claim to be the core of the ops branch. I have worked with more poor FOMs than Ops Os, and at least the Ops Os can claim inexperience. How can FOMs who have been in for 15 years + still be useless?

I have seen cases were the old experienced FOMs have done more damage than the new inexperienced Ops O to. There are too many old Sgts out there who know they will never get promoted and resist change so much they are giving the branch a bad name. All the Ops O I have worked with are all open to new ideas and want to see the branch improve and modernise, can't say the same about all the FOMs.

Maybe some of the older FOMs are getting worried? Feeeling inseucre? I have been lucky to work with some of the younger FOMs, and they have a hell of a lot to offer. With a few more people like these and some early retirements from the old crusties there is hope.
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Dear oh dear. I have worked with 9 Ops O's since the branch began. Of these, only one has been worth HER salt. No names, but she is a very good runner! Of the rest I have been dissapointed with their outlook on what is important within the RAF. One example, and I will use only one because I could go on. And on. And on. Whilst in a very sunny place in the summer I was amazed that one of the three Ops O's priorities was to see if they could purchase, tax free, a quad bike. Whilst other tasks were being dealt with by a FOM and JNCO with help from other sections, the Ops O was asking the Movers, who were busy themselves, how he could get this purchase home to Blighty. Nothing to do with anyones inexperience, bitterness or fear but a general, in my opinion, lack of understanding of an Ops O's position within the flying world.

I know this is sweeping in its content but so was the original post by FF. Where I will agree, though, is with the comment that some retirements may help all of us. But that is not reserved for our little world but the Air Force as a whole.

Standards!
 
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I have no idea. Couldn't really care either, was too busy doing the job I was there to do! Sound very important don't I!!!

Standards!
 
Maybe the issue isn't that Ops Os are rubbish etc, it is something else.

Could it be that all the FOMs etc are worried that Ops Os can do a better job them them after only 14 weeks training, and a few weeks OJT? Are FOMs etc deliberately trying to sabotage the branch? From all these threads it does seem people would rather slag Ops Os off than help them. This could be a conspiracy bigger than Roswell, or the second gun man on the grassy knowl (That was JFK by the way, he shot himself).
 
Flt Ops Officers a positive view .....

Flt Ops Officers a positive view .....

Folks thanks very much for bothering to respond to my initial thread, as usual a wide and diverse point of view. Sadly there are the normal correspondents who fail to offer any constructive thoughts, but that is a prevalent factor across the airforce. Not to be suprised there are the usual anectdotes of people looking after themselves as described by standards whilst on OOA, that said Mr Standards no doubt if you could get a good bargain for the family whilst overseas you would be concentrating on sealing the deal. Do not let personal prejudice get in the way of objectivity !
What I do find sad is the undercurrent of bitterness about the Flt Ops Branch, and how that suppossedley clashes with that of a FOM. Remeber at the Officer level, no matter how junior you are it is considered that you are being looked at for higher management. Yes the two courses are very similiar in content, in practice the two jobs are different.
One thing that I have discovered are the two issues affecting TG9 today are the role of fast trackers and that of Flt Ops Officers. Generally these have been given a comprehensive airing on this facility, sadly most of the views seem to come from a minority of people who have a very negative point of view - hence the reason I started this thread, hoping for some feedback.
We do ourselves no favours Airforce wide and trade group wide when we insist on making puerile and infantile statements about issues that we cannot change. Importantly though we can influnence matters by doing what good SNCOs should do, that is the guidance and advice of young officers no matter how you feel about the individual.
Intelligent and mature replies only.

Slim.
 
General Slim said:
Not to be suprised there are the usual anectdotes of people looking after themselves as described by standards whilst on OOA, that said Mr Standards no doubt if you could get a good bargain for the family whilst overseas you would be concentrating on sealing the deal.

Importantly though we can influnence matters by doing what good SNCOs should do, that is the guidance and advice of young officers no matter how you feel about the individual.
Intelligent and mature replies only.

Slim.
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Slim

I can just see my other halfs face if I had turned up from there with a quad bike!! Think the family were just happy to have me home. No, really!

You are correct that NCO's need to guide and advise ALL people who arrive at any section. But this has to be two way, it is easier for a LAC to listen to advice as the advice comes from ranks above. It is, at times, more difficult for an officer, who has been told that they will be "in charge", to listen to advice from ranks below them. Not always the case, but it is still a stumbling block. A good NCO worth their salt will, of course, not try to undermine the officers position but their is only SO much friendly advice that can be given before things can deteriorate.

Standards!
 
Marshalloftheraf said:
Ops Officers on Sqns !
Great Idea - Well received



Coz they take all the ****e irrellivent jobs off the SQINTOs to let them get on with intelligence, targets and mission planning.

EG:
- ATO breakouts... zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
- Planning Boxes
- Ops Admin


Mind you, the Ops SNCO with his team of SACs used to do all of that and never seemed to have any probs....
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ATO, ACO, SPINs etc are an Ops function, not an Int function. Yet I have only met a handfull of Ops people, or any rank, who can do this properly. Whats with the ZZZZZZZ it takes about 2 minutes to break out most ATOs, even AR ATOs can be done quite quickly. If you have Falcon View and ACO can be broken out in a couple of minutes too. I have done more ATO and ACOs than most people in the RAF, didn't need 15 years experience to do it either.

I do remember a Skoda crew returning from somewhere sandy and reporting that that FOM in the desert had made a mess of their ATO. He had printed off all 120 pages, but had not bothered to check if the flight was even on the ATO. It wasn't, he hadn't chased it, so they had to blag there way through the AOR. Why give a crew 120 pages of information they didn't need, when all they needed was half a page of the correct information? Good to see all that experience coming into play, my 21 year old holding offcer could have (in fact, did all the time) done that job properly.
 
FormerFlake said:
I do remember a Skoda crew returning from somewhere sandy and reporting that that FOM in the desert had made a mess of their ATO. He had printed off all 120 pages, but had not bothered to check if the flight was even on the ATO. It wasn't, he hadn't chased it, so they had to blag there way through the AOR. Why give a crew 120 pages of information they didn't need, when all they needed was half a page of the correct information?
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Don't suppose that the crew thought to look at it BEFORE getting airborne. Not defending the FOM in question in any shape or form mind you, but I am sure that any crew worth their salt would check an ATO, thats all.

Standards!
 
ATO / ACO training is done OJT. There are training packages and courses but its up to individuals to get on them.

Personally speaking I believe they should form part of TMT2 for TG9. Saying that they arent difficult, just sorting out the bollox from the bigger bollox to be honest, so much so a 21year old holding flying officer can do it.
 
Standards said:
Don't suppose that the crew thought to look at it BEFORE getting airborne. Not defending the FOM in question in any shape or form mind you, but I am sure that any crew worth their salt would check an ATO, thats all.

Standards!
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Skoda crew did check it, FOM couldn't get them on the ATO in time before they got airborne. If he had done his job properly, earlier, there would not have been a problem. To be fair to all the crews at Brize, they do check their ATOs etc before getting airborne.

TMT2 ATO lesson is based on NATO format, not the format used in OIF/OEF etc. Reports are that the lesson is way out of date, and inacurate. I did speak to OC FOTS (old one i think) with regards to this and forwarded some up to date info, hopefully this is now being used.

There is a decode guide available for the NATO format via CAOC 9 website on CCIS if anyone needs a copy. Only problem is CCIS printers struggle to print more than 5 pages at a time, unless you have managed to get a upgraded driver.

Anyone wanting to learn how to decode ATOs/ACOs should contact the Mission Support Cell at Brize, these guys do it all day everday and are used to both formats.

All stations STC should now have a copy of Falcon View, find it and use it.
 
This Is A Sensible Post!!!!

This Is A Sensible Post!!!!

:) FF-To echo Standards, the FOM you are refering to should have been pretty ashamed at delivering such a poor service to the Aircrew he was supposed to be looking after. There is no excuse for that. We've all had to dig people out of the guano because of various mishaps/cock ups/lack of interest and it will continue no doubt.

As for the positive feedback. I worked with 2 of the first Flt Ops Officers that hit the streets. They were fantastic people, bags of previous experience in Military matters, had a massive learning curve to climb in the face of hostility (aircrew not TG9 I might add!) and did brilliantly. They are both doing very well in their careers and I wish them both all of the best. My last boss was great too and I hope he/she is destined for better things. The ones in between, well they've not been so great for a miriad of reasons and I will keep to myself the reasons why.

I think the message is clear from all of the posts that have been put on various Ops threads so far, there are too many less than adequate performances in both Trade and Branch. Why is this? don't know. I am not convinced it is down to Phase 2 training alone, nor is it down to a lack/plethora of experience. Could it be people and their own personalities/foibles/character/unwillingness to listen/unwillingness to learn that makes people bad or good? Or is it that they don't give a s*** as long as they get paid?

Somebody tell me the answer!!!

Have a merry christmas y'all!
 
Genuine Question

Genuine Question

Any truth in the rumour that an education officer is going to be filling an Ops Officers Appointment in a very busy Ops room in a sandy place in the new year?
 
izitme, I sincerely hope that you are wrong about that. There is no reason to send any other branch's personnel to fill Flt Ops posts OOA, if they're that short I'll go again!
 
Fenella said:
:) Could it be people and their own personalities/foibles/character/unwillingness to listen/unwillingness to learn that makes people bad or good? Or is it that they don't give a s*** as long as they get paid?

Somebody tell me the answer!!!

Have a merry christmas y'all!
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I think you have summed it up in one there!!

As for a blunty doing an Ops job, especially OOA that has got to be just a rumour. It's bad enough turning up in the Falklands and finding your fellow Watchkeepers are holding officers and Pongos. OOA post should be filled by the best person available for the job, not the next on the list or another branch.
 
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