good trade group 4 posts

[NFTR]

why do you always have to be so negative...everytime i read one of your replies it makes me wanna pvrDT_Xtremez_30:

I wish I could be more positive. However, look around you at what is happening. The RAF have to shed personnel, the way CIS provision is shaping up is playing into their hands.

TG4 is ten years or more too late. DCSA are already taking lots of uniformed posts under their control, next step will be to civilianise them (because it's cheaper). DII presents more negatives than positives (for jobs within trade).

I would love some assurances about our future, but at the moment no one is offering anything positive.

 

[pilgrimshuffler]

PVR then, winging poom

PVR then, winging poom

Hi,
Look i agree mate that at times it dosn't look too good for the trade but things are now settling down with most of us now having gone through the assimilation training. A6 are now really pushing the trade to the rest of the RAF, with 4 recent get togethers at HQSTC of all station commanders reference new TG4 slots. All Atlas are is a mix of fujitsu and DCSA, all they will be doing is the same as they do now. I agree mate that all he seems to do is complain when anything positive happens, typical tea bar talk. I'm not worried if you are worried then PVR and make room for the rest of us.
The future is rosy

 

[rugby then work]

I work within a section now controlled by DCSA and they are never going to civilianize all the posts as it's not cheaper to employ civvies when some of the work involves call or out of hours work. We've actually had 2 new posts created, 1 x CIS Tech and 1 x Op Maint, and 1 x Civvie post dropped. This was largely due to us working the odd weekend doing server rebuilds and the civvies get double time for any thing more than 2 hours overtime.

No one can be sure how all this will pan out over the next few years but I don’t think it’s all doom and gloom.

 

[NFTR]

No one can be sure how all this will pan out over the next few years but I don't think it's all doom and gloom.

That's about the size of it.

Good to see some enthusiasm for TG4 but you all seem to think I don't support it, far from it. I'm just very, very wary about the whole DCSA/DII thing.

For all the doubters out there. The positions in danger are the posts which have recently been absorbed by DCSA. We were told, at a Welcome Event presented by a head honcho from DISD CIS(S), that the CIS Provision posts recently transferred would be ‘released’ when ATLAS take over, simply that ATLAS won’t need them. If this happens (and I hope this decision is re-visited and reversed) these bods will have to be posted out, but to where? The Trade numbers will need to be downsized. Increment 2 will be just a blip compared to the possible impact of Increment 3 when the rest of the RAF sites get DII.

Any posts not transferred are not directly involved in CIS Provision, ie, content driven posts (I-Hub etc) and hopefully should be safe. If you need more info on that CIS(S) statement PM me. I can provide contact details of at least 10 TG4 personnel who heard the brief and would confirm it for you if you rang them. If you are already in DCSA and moving towards DII (I’m talking DII(F) here), ask the question to your DISD region rep, will ATLAS shed the posts? If you get a different answer to what was briefed to us, let me know and I’ll chase it again.

CIS is definitely the major growth area at the moment, and I'm as keen as the next to push forward and secure a future for our Trade but we are being frustrated at every turn. As I said before, TG4 has come along too late. Why are there already so many civvies in Ground Radios, Commcens and ITMS's?

A6 may be pushing the Trade, but at the end of it if the Station is unwilling to fund the posts (or even stand up C4I as per the AP 600, and I can confirm our Stn Cdr never went anywhere near a meeting at A6) how can we provide the correct level of CIS output required?

And PVR?, best laugh I've had in ages. DT_Xtremez_28:

 

[pilgrimshuffler]

I give up, yes there is going to be posts shed by DCSA thats been going on for the last 10 years when the civvies started to move in but we have to beleave that the commcen/ground radio/flight watch, is no more its a dead parrot!
The trade is now all about I hubs, TCW. What i'm trying to tell you is that the trade is safe but we will lose in time posts, that was always going to happen. I'd like to find out what station commander you are on about?
It's not a case of the Staion commander wanting to take on a I hub it's more like having to now. Although doors are closing for the trade, which aren't a bad thing, alot more are opening.

 

[NFTR]

You've really got the wrong end of what I'm trying to get across.

All Atlas are is a mix of fujitsu and DCSA, all they will be doing is the same as they do now.

If thats your idea of what ATLAS are , just proves you have no idea what you are talking about.

The trade is now all about I hubs, TCW.

Pretty much what I was saying. But, there are are still a lot of TG4 personnel who are presently involved directly in CIS provision, these will have to go under DII.

I'd like to find out what station commander you are on about?

PM me and I'll give you my phone number, you can call me to find out.

It's not a case of the Staion commander wanting to take on a I hub it's more like having to now.

Read my post, I didn't say we don't have an I-Hub, I was saying my Stn Cdr was not at any meetings at A6 which you reckon all Stn Cdrs attended.

 

[pilgrimshuffler]

I found your previous post slightly patronising, perhaps i havn't grasped totally what atlas are but in the big picture of the trade(2 years down the line) they are no threat to the way in which the trade are going. You sound like you have had some bad experiences of DCSA, we all have but i can't see them going any where, you just seem be someone who is very negative and can't see the brighter side of what is going on, i don't want to get into a slanging match, we'll leave it there now as i can't see we are going to agree. We have obvisiouly been given conflicting information, thankyou.::

 

[rugby then work]

NFTR and Pilgrim (was going to abbreviate that to PS then thought better of it)

You both have very valid arguments even though they differ, in the end that's what all these forum are all about, the chance to air our opinions and hear what everyone else thinks.

I for one have enjoyed reading your comments and I think they were put in the right way (without to much intentional offence).

As I've said before my minds not made up, we'll have to wait and see what comes of TGIV. DT_Xtremez_42:

 

[NFTR]

Fair one, we'll have to agree to disagree. I apologise if you found the post patronising, It certainly wasn't meant to be.

The main thrust of what I was trying to get across is that many CIS posts now (Server Support, Networks, LDCN, ITMS ETC) will be taken over by ATLAS. We were briefed by DISD on this. That's a fair slice of the current TG4 manning.

You may be sitting at an Increment 3 station with the luxury of a C4I structure to conduct your business as per the AP 600. Some places are not so fortunate and are struggling with a lack of manpower and support. I'm hopeful this will change, but despite the A6 recommendations, if Stns won't fund, the posts won't appear.

I've been involved with the Increment 2 Transfer and the Take on Service Plan (that should give you a clue where we are) for my Stn so I'm not making any of this up mate.

You say I'm negative, far from it, I just want the best for my people for the future. The OM's are coming out of almost a years training with a good spread of knowledge. How do you explain to them that most of the areas they have been trained on and see now, won't be available for them to work in once DII rolls in.

Take it easy mate.

 

[NFTR]

I work within a section now controlled by DCSA and they are never going to civilianize all the posts as it's not cheaper to employ civvies when some of the work involves call or out of hours work. We've actually had 2 new posts created, 1 x CIS Tech and 1 x Op Maint, and 1 x Civvie post dropped. This was largely due to us working the odd weekend doing server rebuilds and the civvies get double time for any thing more than 2 hours overtime.

No one can be sure how all this will pan out over the next few years but I don’t think it’s all doom and gloom.

Cheers mate. I think I know where you are and as you said are already under DCSA. When you actually go from DII(C) into DII(F) and ATLAS take over fully, it seems from what we were briefed, some of your posts will go. This is what I have difficulty with and I am frustrated that our Trade Sponsors have not made this clear. It's a let down, there has been too much misinformation over all of this.

 

[pilgrimshuffler]

Fair one, i think i have just pinged not just where you are but possibly who you are, i can see where i information has come from and how is has become hazy. I'm just trying to be positive about the trade although i'm sure everything is going to settle down soon and as they say it'll become clearer. i beleave we need to give our trade sponsor a big thanks for what he has done and continues to do. Take care mate, its been fun chewing the fat!

 

[rugby then work]

Cheers mate. I think I know where you are and as you said are already under DCSA. When you actually go from DII(C) into DII(F) and ATLAS take over fully, it seems from what we were briefed, some of your posts will go. This is what I have difficulty with and I am frustrated that our Trade Sponsors have not made this clear. It's a let down, there has been too much misinformation over all of this.

Agreed, when DII(F) or as we call it DI (IF) does come in I think at least half of the blue suits in my section will be for the chop. The upside (if you can call it that) is that they are not as close with DI (IF) as many believe, I'm fortunate that I do get a bit of insider info in the post I currently hold and whilst it's not going away I do think it's going to quite a few years yet before the RAF/DCSA can do without our (blue suits) services.

 

[NFTR]

Yep, mucho slippage to the right for DII seems on the cards.

One of the grey areas at the moment is the direction the OM's have to be steered (IM or Tech) at the 2 year point. With it now becoming evident that DII, despite the delays, will reduce a lot of Tech posts, how is this going to be managed?

I'm not trying to spread doom and gloom, just pondering over the future career options open to the young kids in the trade. They deserve better than this.

 

[pilgrimshuffler]

The only trouble with the new and shiny LAC's that are being pushed out is (what i can see) is that they will be a short fall in the manning of a section, when they have to be rotated to another section to gain their experience, for example being posted into a ses(systems) then having to be moved up into a IHUB position, the sections cannot rely on them for any kind of manning. Perhaps i'm wrong.

 

[rugby then work]

Think this is one of the real problems with the OM/CIS Tech idea, how do we decide which way to point (push) them, extra training to become a CIS Tech can be pushed with the promise of Higher pay band but is really a good career move? I really don't know at the moment .

The really annoying thing (at least for me) is the lack of direction from the trade sponsors, SNCO's need more information if we are expected to help the newer members of the trade to make the right choices when it comes to their future.

 

[pilgrimshuffler]

I beleave in some(if not all) of the cases their career paths will be chossen by the drafter, ie where he has slots that need filling or where there is a short fall, abit like that scam that went on when we joined up, i'm sure they used to(covering my back) mark it favourably where the trade was wanted. I feel sorry for them, they certainly seem alot more swiched on, and arn't afraid to say it as it is!
Perhaps moving away from the subject, my mates on TCW have told me that the army are starting to take up slots, mainly as exchange on TCW, does anyone beleave that this is a sign of things to come?

 

[Wing boy]

Sorry bud. There are only 2 exchange slots on TCW taken by the army. One of whom is not British. This is to do with "Jointery" I believe and they are both officer slots.