Welcome to E-Goat :: The Totally Unofficial Royal Air Force Rumour Network
Join our free community to unlock a range of benefits like:
  • Post and participate in discussions.
  • Send and receive private messages with other members.
  • Respond to polls and surveys.
  • Upload and share content.
  • Gain access to exclusive features and tools.
Join 7.5K others today

Hillsborough

  • Thread starter Thread starter gemarriott
  • Start date Start date
  • Following weeks of work, the E-GOAT team are delighted to present to you a new look to the forums with plenty of new features. Take a look around and see what you think!
Trending This Week
View More Trending
firestorm said:
Gem, neither me or both barrels has mentioned drunken fans.
I do however accept what you've posted.
Click to expand...

the reason I mention drunken is that there is usually no distinction made between ticketless fans and drunken fansboth being classed as pariahs.

There were 2 fans ejected for not having tickets prior to the game, no mention of fans being ejected for drunkeness and no reports of drunken behaviour made before the game. If you click on Insty's clicky thing and read the green guide to safety report doc I think as a fireman you'll be pretty disgusted with what you find.
 
Thanks GEM! Sometimes it strikes me that people want this to be the Liverpool fans fault. It's better than it being some-one else's fault somehow!

I am reposting the link a little larger than before as I think all sports fans should see the facts of that day.

Everything in that link has been researched thoroughly and is backed with evidence. Please read it and then help stop the lies and mis-conceptions from spreading further.

Once you've read it if you can't see why the families still fight for justice, then...........
 
insty66 said:
Thanks GEM! Sometimes it strikes me that people want this to be the Liverpool fans fault. It's better than it being some-one else's fault somehow!
Click to expand...
Not with me. However a large section of Liverpool fans played their part in this tragedy but this is rarely spoken about.
 
Those fans who turned up, ticketless and tried to gain entry to the ground played their part in the tragedy. They were a contributing factor. despite the advice given to them not to travel without a ticket they thought better. They have to accept their action are part of this horrendous tragedy.
 
I'm sure they do hold themselves partly to blame but why hasn't anyone been found guilty of fault? Look at the Corsican disaster the head of the French FA got 6 months in prison. What the families are after is justice and all the court cases have done here is protect the peope in the wrong even more.
 
Dave-exfairy said:
Yes, the decision to open the gate was a bad decision, but Peter Beardsley hitting the bar and the crowd surging forwards was sheer bad luck.
Click to expand...

I would call Beardsley hitting the bar as really lucky, can you imagine what would've happened if he'd have scored!

The tragedy happened because of inept policing, it astounds me that people are not aware of this. JFT96.
 
Hammer and stillson said:
I'm sure they do hold themselves partly to blame but why hasn't anyone been found guilty of fault? Look at the Corsican disaster the head of the French FA got 6 months in prison. What the families are after is justice and all the court cases have done here is protect the peope in the wrong even more.
Click to expand...

I agree. Someone needs to be brought to book over this.
I just wish fans would stop going to matches without tickets and try to get in, like the problems in Athens.
All people need to take responsibility for their actions.
 
firestorm said:
Those fans who turned up, ticketless and tried to gain entry to the ground played their part in the tragedy. They were a contributing factor. despite the advice given to them not to travel without a ticket they thought better. They have to accept their action are part of this horrendous tragedy.
Click to expand...

I have to correct what I said earlier, the Hillsborough report could actually find no evidence that there were any ticketless fans at all and actually could not find any evidence to pin the disaster on Liverpool supporters. But I'm not niaive enough to try to argue that there were no ticketless fans, however there is certainly no evidence to suggest that there were 'large numbers of them', enough to make the difference to the overall throng and prevent the crush from happening.
There would have been plenty of space had all those fans been directed to the correct areas of the terraces, as it is they all tried to get into the centre one that they could see through the entrance tunnel.

Fans travelling games without tickets is something all clubs have to live with, Arsenal fans managed to surf the turnstyles and get into their CL final in Paris, nothing untowards happened so it goes uncommented upon.
And lets not forget the 1500 tickets Everton fans bought in the away end at the UEFA cup tie in Nuremburg in 2007 which were withdrawn by the home side on UEFA's advice, but still on sale in pubs around Goodison afterwards. Ticketless fans were expected to travel to that game too.
Disasters have a number of contributing factors and catalysts, bring them together and it goes off. Hillsborough is one such example and lets face it,m the fate of the FA cup draw could just have easily seen Everton fans at that stadium on that day.
 
To a large extent, this was a tragedy waiting to happen. It could have happened at the majority of grounds in the 80's. There seem to be many contributing factors as has been mentioned.
Bad policing, ticketless fans, enclosed pens etc. But I think the main reason this happened is because of the way stadiums had been changed over the previous decade, due to the hooligan element of English football. The fact that there were barriers and pens in a standing enclosure is due entirely to the fact that English football had a major hooligan problem.
Add to that the police tactics of the time and you have all the ingredients for a disaster.
As a direct result of Hillsborough, the fences were taken down and all seater stadia were made mandatory in the premier league. Therefor the chances of a similar incident happening again has been greatly reduced.
I can think of no greater memorial to the dead fans than that. It's just a shame it took a tragedy to enforce the changes.
Before you start blaming individuals, you should look at the football culture of the 80's and in that respect there's a lot of so called fans from all over England who shoulder some of the blame.(including Liverpool fans)
 
Having left this debate for 24 hours, it seems that my comments have strengthened this thread, so I will accept the apologies from Propersplitbrain and the rest. At least I know I am not alone in my reasoning behind the disaster. Take off the red blinkers, the truth is out there.
 
I was often "crushed" at matches in the 60s and 70s when the crowd surged forward. And this is when the grounds were not over full.
The police were at fault no doubt but it was a decision made by an officer who thought that not opening the gates would have caused major problems. He couldn't have forseen what was going to happen. Were the fans to blame as well? I don't know but I have witnessed the behaviour of fans at many matches at the time, we used to roll out of the pub 15 minutes before kick off and then start surging forward when we realised the match had started.
The main contributor to the disaster was the design of the ground and if anything good came out of this it is that it couldn't happen today thank God.
 
both barrels said:
Having left this debate for 24 hours, it seems that my comments have strengthened this thread, so I will accept the apologies from Propersplitbrain and the rest. At least I know I am not alone in my reasoning behind the disaster. Take off the red blinkers, the truth is out there.
Click to expand...

You are not alone no, but you are still wrong.

So thank you but I'll accept YOUR apologies as the Taylor report, linked to in this thread, details precisely who was at fault and it supports my viewpoint and not yours. All you are left with is to feed desperately off the factoids that have been proven to be false time and again. End of.
 
Webbo said:
Taken from wikipedia, again Liverpool 'fans' involved

The Heysel Stadium Disaster (often simplified to Heysel or the Heysel Disaster) refers to the deaths of 39 (and injury of some 600 more) people, mostly fans of Juventus F.C., before the 1985 European Cup Final held in the Heysel Stadium, Brussels. The disaster is one of the most high profile and one of the worst cases of football hooliganism in European and world football. It was the first of two stadium related disasters of which Liverpool was a part; the other was the Hillsborough Disaster.

Approximately an hour before the scheduled kick-off time a group of supporters of English Liverpool F.C. breached a fence separating them from rival supporters of Juventus F.C. and charged at and attacked the Italian supporters. Juventus fans were forced to retreat, putting pressure on a dilapidated retaining wall, which collapsed away from them. The crush of fans against the wall and its collapse led to many deaths and hundreds of injuries. The game was played despite the disaster in order to prevent further violence.

The tragedy resulted in all English football clubs being placed under an indefinite ban by UEFA from all European competitions (lifted in 1990-91), with Liverpool F.C. being excluded for an additional year and a number of Liverpool fans prosecuted for manslaughter. The disaster has been called "the darkest hour in the history of the UEFA competitions."[1]

Liverpool 'fans' at fault on both occasions.
Click to expand...

Wikipedia is a really reliable source! HERE is a slightly different viewpoint.



As has already been stated English fans had an awful reputation at home and in Europe. It wasn't the only country with a problem with "hooligans" though.

This thread is about Hillsborough.

Read the link in my earlier posts, there is not a single lie written within it.
The facts are:

There is no supporting evidence to suggest that "thousands" (or even hundreds) of fans turned up with no ticket.

There was no rush at the gates, CCTV evidence supports this.

The safety regs at Hillsborough were not enforced.

The fans were told to not turn up early to avoid a rush.

Stewarding was not all it could be.

Certain elements of the S Yorks police did not cover their selves with glory.

The coroner effectively ruled out great swathes of evidence with his arbitrary time of death cut off.

I've been restrained in my comments in this thread but I have to say some comments border on the ridiculous, ill informed, blinkered, ignorant, if not plain old anti Scouse prejudice.

Read the original link, get of your high horse and accept the facts as established by far more intelligent folk than me and you. It could have been fans from any of the top clubs of the day.


For the record I'm not from Liverpool or even the West side of the UK. It just ****es me off when people with spout off with their half assed opinions formed with zero knowledge.

96 people died because the systems and organisations that existed to keep them safe at a football match failed. No-one has said to the families; How, why, who, what or in some cases when. It's not much to ask for is it?
 
Webbo said:
Taken from wikipedia, again Liverpool 'fans' involved

The Heysel Stadium Disaster (often simplified to Heysel or the Heysel Disaster) refers to the deaths of 39 (and injury of some 600 more) people, mostly fans of Juventus F.C., before the 1985 European Cup Final held in the Heysel Stadium, Brussels. The disaster is one of the most high profile and one of the worst cases of football hooliganism in European and world football. It was the first of two stadium related disasters of which Liverpool was a part; the other was the Hillsborough Disaster.

Approximately an hour before the scheduled kick-off time a group of supporters of English Liverpool F.C. breached a fence separating them from rival supporters of Juventus F.C. and charged at and attacked the Italian supporters. Juventus fans were forced to retreat, putting pressure on a dilapidated retaining wall, which collapsed away from them. The crush of fans against the wall and its collapse led to many deaths and hundreds of injuries. The game was played despite the disaster in order to prevent further violence.

The tragedy resulted in all English football clubs being placed under an indefinite ban by UEFA from all European competitions (lifted in 1990-91), with Liverpool F.C. being excluded for an additional year and a number of Liverpool fans prosecuted for manslaughter. The disaster has been called "the darkest hour in the history of the UEFA competitions."[1]

Liverpool 'fans' at fault on both occasions.
Click to expand...

Oh where to start :rolleyes:

OK, first off, Wikipedia is not an authorative source for evidence, its an opinionpedia.

Secondly, when Lord Justice Taylor chaired the enquirey into the disaster he, funnily enough, looked at what happened at Hillsborough, not Heysel - you see how this works? He took the trouble, inconvenient though it may have been, to examine the evidence associated with the events at Hillsborough and concluded after so doing that Liverpool fans were not to blame.
So, simply pointing to Heysel and saying 'Liverpool fans to blame on both occasions' doesn't actually make it true, regardless of how much you want it to be true.

But if you are so convinced you are right then please pop off and find some evidence, not hearsay or the usual regurgitated factoids that abound the web, but evidence that Liverpool fans were to blame for Hillsborough (not Heysel or Athens but Hillsborough) and present it to us here so we can have a look at it. Trust me, there are plenty of other people who have tried who would love to see it too just so they can say 'I told you so'.

Thank you.
 
If people are going to try and persuade me that liverpool fans were somehow blameless in Heysel then they've lost my respect for the previous decent work done in this thread.
 
propersplitbrainme said:
But if you are so convinced you are right then please pop off and find some evidence, not hearsay or the usual regurgitated factoids that abound the web, but evidence that Liverpool fans were to blame for Hillsborough (not Heysel or Athens but Hillsborough) and present it to us here so we can have a look at it. Trust me, there are plenty of other people who have tried who would love to see it too just so they can say 'I told you so'.

Thank you.
Click to expand...


Oh dear. I have just trawled through the Taylor Report, the interim one, as that is the one that is most damning of the police and is judged the better one of the pair by liverpool supporters. The final one was a cop out by all intents and purposes.

Chapter 10 is of keen interest and Appendix 6 para 9.

Nevermind PSBM. You have your blinkered view and I have mine. Get over it and move on. By the way, calling me c0ck, nice touch, LMAO!
 
firestorm said:
If people are going to try and persuade me that liverpool fans were somehow blameless in Heysel then they've lost my respect for the previous decent work done in this thread.
Click to expand...

Off TopicWas never the intention, merely to illustrate that wiki is not the place to be quoting "facts" from, as we all know information from the internet needs to be double checked at the very least. Nothing more or lessOff Topic
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top