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Hillsborough

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Hillsborough the truth at last?

Hillsborough the truth at last?

Well do we finally have the truth?

I have always thought this disaster was 50% police incompetence.

45% ground design and stewarding, we were caught in a crush a couple of weeks earlier in the leppings lane terrace thanks to lack of ground directions and poor stewarding.

5% impatience among the fans.

No doubt at all though the government and Police are 100% guilty of stopping the truth leaking out.

My only personal involvement was on the day of the disaster Derby were at Old Trafford. We were late setting off and at around 1330 we passed the last roundabout in Sheffield before getting onto the Woodhead road. The police had stopped the Liverpool buses and cars there to hold them out of town for as long as possible. The tail back of fans heading into Sheffield over Woodhead pass was about 3 or 4 miles long.

At the time of the inquest the Police maintained the late surge was caused by fans arriving from the pub. I gave evidence about the queues on the road at the time to the police when they appealed for any evidence prior to the inquests. I got a letter back thanking me and stating that they didn't think my evidence was pertinent.

I am more disgusted than ever now at the way we football fans as a whole have been treated by our elected authorities!
 
gemarriott said:
Well do we finally have the truth?

I have always thought this disaster was 50% police incompetence.

45% ground design and stewarding, we were caught in a crush a couple of weeks earlier in the leppings lane terrace thanks to lack of ground directions and poor stewarding.

5% impatience among the fans.

No doubt at all though the government and Police are 100% guilty of stopping the truth leaking out.

My only personal involvement was on the day of the disaster Derby were at Old Trafford. We were late setting off and at around 1330 we passed the last roundabout in Sheffield before getting onto the Woodhead road. The police had stopped the Liverpool buses and cars there to hold them out of town for as long as possible. The tail back of fans heading into Sheffield over Woodhead pass was about 3 or 4 miles long.

At the time of the inquest the Police maintained the late surge was caused by fans arriving from the pub. I gave evidence about the queues on the road at the time to the police when they appealed for any evidence prior to the inquests. I got a letter back thanking me and stating that they didn't think my evidence was pertinent.

I am more disgusted than ever now at the way we football fans as a whole have been treated by our elected authorities!
Click to expand...

Certainly South Yorkshire Police officers involved with the perjury should be charged for such (and anybody else for that matter) and certainly the inquests for the 96 must be reheld. However I fear that unlawful death verdicts and mansalughter charges will only serve to line lawyers pockets.. Nobody in the Police that day had the intention of killing anybody and the staduims of the day were made deathtraps by Clubs having to stop the actions of the mindless idiots that followed certain clubs, including Liverpool (some of us do remember Heysel). All police forces tried to keep football fans out of their city centres, because they were likely to be trashed by them then! The 80s were dark days indeed, however the disaster led to the removal of the cages and the all seater staduim of today..
 
But who decided to put all that hidden and really important info into a lock-up for 20 years?...and why?

The cover-up doesn't stop at the police - someone in government office had to approve the need to hide all this.
 
I'm bringing this back to the top to give people a chance to see how wrong they were and see if they can be big enough to admit it.

The TRUTH has been published, now let's have some justice.
 
Truth Justice, what do they want?

Truth Justice, what do they want?

I am already a bit bored and confused over all the apologies.

It always seemed to be pushed as a campaign against the Police and the Sun.

And these seem to be the headlines again.

Surely the fact the stadium didn't have a proper safety certificate and that the authorities/ FA knew this then they will be the ones facing the charges?

Everything that happened afterwards is all subject to the power of hindsight and comparison with more modern practices today. The cover up still doesn't seem that clear to me but I couldn't read all the report. As you say they were different times back then and I remember seeing the films at the time of hordes of fans streaming through gates over fences trying to get in.

I feel for the families and all those living with the scenes they saw on that terrible day, including the emergency services who I am sure were doing what they thought best on the day.
 
Mug? said:
I am already a bit bored and confused over all the apologies.
Click to expand...

Confused indeed. Has Cameron just covered up the original cover up over the cover up??

It goes without saying that the dead were the innocent ones. The dead were (in the main) the families with tickets who avoided the pubs, arrived early to get a good view and thus condemned themselves to death by standing up close to the cage fences.

As for the PM's 'apology' - I think besmirching an entire Police Force is an appalling thing to do.
The Liverpool fans still have the $64k question to answer - who was at the back doing the pushing?? Was it the Police charging the turnstiles after leaving the pubs with 10mins to spare? Was it the ambulance service - no, of course it wasn't.

As for PM's claim that 24000 scousers (ALL with tickets ??)were sober - doesn't sound like any coach trip to a match that I've ever been on. Certainly contradicts the eye-witness reports at the time from Landlords and off-licence owners who spoke of being 'pillaged' by Liverpool fans.

If this was a Govt ordered cover-up, it must've involved over 2-300 people, all keeping schtumm for 23 yrs. I just don't buy it.
 
Not a political move by Camoron to try an curry some favour in Liverpool? General Election starting to loom and all that.....
 
Inevertouchedit said:
The Liverpool fans still have the $64k question to answer - who was at the back doing the pushing?? Was it the Police charging the turnstiles after leaving the pubs with 10mins to spare? Was it the ambulance service - no, of course it wasn't.
Click to expand...

Crowds of people have a dynamic of their own and there is a whole field within social psychology dedicated to the study of crowd behaviour and control. Their behaviour is not indicative of how each individual would behave if given the time and space in which to think about what they are doing. We know a lot more about it these days and, as you suggest you are familiar with coach trips to matches (although you'll also know of course that alcohol is banned on coaches these days at the risk of the company losing its licence) you'll recognise the measures that are taken by design, by crowd routing outside grounds and through siting of stewards and police officers that a lot has been learned about crowd dynamics.
 
Inevertouchedit said:
Confused indeed. Has Cameron just covered up the original cover up over the cover up??

It goes without saying that the dead were the innocent ones. The dead were (in the main) the families with tickets who avoided the pubs, arrived early to get a good view and thus condemned themselves to death by standing up close to the cage fences.

As for the PM's 'apology' - I think besmirching an entire Police Force is an appalling thing to do.
The Liverpool fans still have the $64k question to answer - who was at the back doing the pushing?? Was it the Police charging the turnstiles after leaving the pubs with 10mins to spare? Was it the ambulance service - no, of course it wasn't.

As for PM's claim that 24000 scousers (ALL with tickets ??)were sober - doesn't sound like any coach trip to a match that I've ever been on. Certainly contradicts the eye-witness reports at the time from Landlords and off-licence owners who spoke of being 'pillaged' by Liverpool fans.

If this was a Govt ordered cover-up, it must've involved over 2-300 people, all keeping schtumm for 23 yrs. I just don't buy it.
Click to expand...

Are you taking the ****?

Look at BBC website that shows in simple pictures how and why the crush happened.

The evidence which is there to see, exonerates the fans.

I don't know where you got you info from about off licenses from but the interim Taylor report (i think) does not agree.

The dead were tested for alcohol, and then when that was negative the used the national crime database to try to sully the reputations.

116 of 164 police statements altered

I can only assume you are just a nasty troll and I've just made you day.

"It's black and white, the fans are not to blame"
 
Whilst I do blame the police more for the cover up than their actions we need to look at those in charge of the entire issue, council, government, Sheffield Wednesday and press.

I do have a little sympathy for the plods on the ground that day. Ordered to things against their better judgement and then made to lie about it on official documents.

Nobody comes out of this with any great credit but IMHO the senior cops,press, and above all our elected political leaders should pay the heaviest price the law can impose.
 
Hardly mythical and hardly a British thing (ever go see MG when in BFG?). Reputations are easily earned and hard to shake off. The difference between the UK and Europe (where not only do caged enclosures still exist but where crowd violence is still endemic), is that not only do our press choose to incorrectly air this laundry in public in some sort of obscene "mia culpa", they also like to wash it with a front loader too, just to add piquance to the story.

I don't have an opinion on football, but as a social commentary this speaks more to a paucity of intelligent reasoning across the strata of society - simply put; we like wallowing in the sheite too much.
 
Inevertouchedit said:
Confused indeed. Has Cameron just covered up the original cover up over the cover up??It goes without saying that the dead were the innocent ones. The dead were (in the main) the families with tickets who avoided the pubs, arrived early to get a good view and thus condemned themselves to death by standing up close to the cage fences.As for the PM's 'apology' - I think besmirching an entire Police Force is an appalling thing to do. The Liverpool fans still have the $64k question to answer - who was at the back doing the pushing?? Was it the Police charging the turnstiles after leaving the pubs with 10mins to spare? Was it the ambulance service - no, of course it wasn't.As for PM's claim that 24000 scousers (ALL with tickets ??)were sober - doesn't sound like any coach trip to a match that I've ever been on. Certainly contradicts the eye-witness reports at the time from Landlords and off-licence owners who spoke of being 'pillaged' by Liverpool fans.If this was a Govt ordered cover-up, it must've involved over 2-300 people, all keeping schtumm for 23 yrs. I just don't buy it.
Click to expand...
Is that you Kelvin?http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/hc1213/hc05/0581/0581.pdf
 
Inevertouchedit said:
As for the PM's 'apology' - I think besmirching an entire Police Force is an appalling thing to do.
The Liverpool fans still have the $64k question to answer - who was at the back doing the pushing?? Was it the Police charging the turnstiles after leaving the pubs with 10mins to spare? Was it the ambulance service - no, of course it wasn't.

As for PM's claim that 24000 scousers (ALL with tickets ??)were sober - doesn't sound like any coach trip to a match that I've ever been on. Certainly contradicts the eye-witness reports at the time from Landlords and off-licence owners who spoke of being 'pillaged' by Liverpool fans.

If this was a Govt ordered cover-up, it must've involved over 2-300 people, all keeping schtumm for 23 yrs. I just don't buy it.
Click to expand...

So your source for these allegations of pillaging football fans is what exactly? Stories in the press that have since been disproved time and again or do you have your own little stash of evidence that somehow managed to evade the hundreds of thousands of hours of investigations and inquiries and somehow didn't appear in the 400,000 pages of witness statements examined by an independent panel.

The investigations found NO EVIDENCE of drunkeness, ticketlessness or deliberate late arrival. There was no rushing of the turnstiles, no assault of police officers, no looting of the dead and dying, no assaulting and urinating on emergency services personnel and no sexual assault of dead girls. That only existed in the mind of the then editor of a scum rag who has openly admitted 'I never printed lies, just stories that turned out to be not true'.

If it was a cover up then you're quite right, there would be evidence of several hundred people colluding to hide the truth, but where is the proof? It's not as if there are 100+ doctored police statements or missing CCTV footage is there? Oh sorry yes there is!

If this was a fishing trip then well done for picking such an inappropriate subject for it. If not, you seriously need to actually read some of the TRUE accounts of what went on that day.
 
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