If I Was Trade Sponsor I Would

[KingGuin]

I got myself totally immersed in the Mission Support side of Sqn life, helping the GLO and Sqn IntO to produce challenging scenarios for the aircrew to keep them on their toes. I also did a hell of a lot with the S&C. Sadly both these areas have now had to be sacrificed to enable us just to keep up with what the former PSF have thrown our way.

Ah, he says with Devil's Advocate hat on, Mission Support that good old core TG17 competency - not. I remember calling for all TG17 TORs at a Unit and asking a Sqn SNCO to justify the inclusion of "washing the Sqn Cdr's car" and "updating the Sqn Social register" in his TORs. This is the same individual, now left, who told me with a straight face that "walking the Sqn Cdr's dog" should also be included as is took up much of his time.

Joking aside, lets fuel to the debate. Sqn Clks eh? Sqn Strength @ 200-250, TG17 establishment normally 1 Sgt, 1 Cpl maybe an SAC and usually a civy E2. A couple of dets a year to prep for and the Bosses dog to walk - easy life! Anyone who fails to shine on a Sqn should be shot. Discuss.

 

[muttywhitedog]

Ah, he says with Devil's Advocate hat on, Mission Support that good old core TG17 competency - not. I remember calling for all TG17 TORs at a Unit and asking a Sqn SNCO to justify the inclusion of "washing the Sqn Cdr's car" and "updating the Sqn Social register" in his TORs. This is the same individual, now left, who told me with a straight face that "walking the Sqn Cdr's dog" should also be included as is took up much of his time.

Joking aside, lets fuel to the debate. Sqn Clks eh? Sqn Strength @ 200-250, TG17 establishment normally 1 Sgt, 1 Cpl maybe an SAC and usually a civy E2. A couple of dets a year to prep for and the Bosses dog to walk - easy life! Anyone who fails to shine on a Sqn should be shot. Discuss.

You took part of my quote there KG - I actually started it with "When I wasnt doing....". I could've sat back and done nothing, or closed in the afternoons like PSF seemed to do, but chose to get extra strings to my bow - is that a bad thing? Probably was actually in the eyes of those looking from other sections because those who insisted on shutting for "their lunch hour" had to raise their game to keep up!

A couple of dets? I'm currently on my 4th since last July, with another big push in April for 4 months!! Racking up a 90 day DWR Credit has never been so quick!! You must be at some place that isnt very operational then!

Enjoy your full lunch hours, afternoon sports sessions and "closed for the afternoon" days wont youDT_Xtremez_15:

 

[KingGuin]

You took part of my quote there KG - I actually started it with "When I wasnt doing....". I could've sat back and done nothing, or closed in the afternoons like PSF seemed to do, but chose to get extra strings to my bow - is that a bad thing? Probably was actually in the eyes of those looking from other sections because those who insisted on shutting for "their lunch hour" had to raise their game to keep up!

A couple of dets? I'm currently on my 4th since last July, with another big push in April for 4 months!! Racking up a 90 day DWR Credit has never been so quick!! You must be at some place that isnt very operational then!

Enjoy your full lunch hours, afternoon sports sessions and "closed for the afternoon" days wont youDT_Xtremez_15:

Mutty let me introduce you to the concept of "taking the p*ss". It is something I specialise in when not concentrating on the arduous duties of my day job. If you read my posts, I like to stimulate debate, I believe it to be healthy. However, you have made a schoolboy error by assuming I work in the PFA and that my current Unit is not operational. You are wrong on both counts, however I'll think about forgiving you during my extended lunchbreak/gym hour/general skiving later. DT_Xtremez_15:

 

[muttywhitedog]

DT_Xtremez_24:

Yep I bit!!!

 

[TrebleB]

its definately a "slog" in PSF thats for sure, and seems like very much a chicken factory mentality has set in these days.

The reality is that Sqn clerks now have a far wider range of PFA skills than any "pidgeon-holed" PSF clerk. I would far rather have an ex sqn clerk than an ex PSF clerk working for me due to the fact they can do everything and not just Appraisals thing or Discharges, or PDs. Rotating them would have to happen too often for it to keep their hand in. Same could be said for the Cpls and to a lesser extent the Sgts.

The Sqn clerks may do it for a lot less people, but they do it all - and generally to a higher standard. I would even go as far as saying that this now makes their posts more demanding than a PSF job where there is plenty of lateral cover to make up for the ability of some less able clerks.

Makes you wonder what they used to do in Sqn Admin offices before the PFA task was devolved to them though!

As someone who has moved sideways(!) from a busy sqn admin into the PSF - the latter days of the 'PSF Elite' have certainly diminished and, with a lot of autonomy being given to the sqn admin offices, my trade knowledge had certainly increased during the 5 years I was there - moreso than my PSF counterparts.

I am now in (takes deep breath) A1 Ops Spt doing the IT thang and also providing specialist (I hate that) support and advice - on the back of nearly 20 years main PFA employment. I hear our MoD and HQ brethren also stating that they may feel out of the loop and excluded from a lot of shiney stuff - but I have also done a HQ registry (odd job man ) and can sympathise with them, it took me a while to get back in the saddle after that tour!!

On another point though, swapping SACs and indeed, cpls around need not be as painful or carry a training burden if all of the jobs are made as standardised as possible on a station. Sure, you are going to get the environmental nuances and learn everyone's names, but the job between sqns/admin offices should be, near enough, identical....

 

[Boarderlyne]

On another point though, swapping SACs and indeed, cpls around need not be as painful or carry a training burden if all of the jobs are made as standardised as possible on a station. Sure, you are going to get the environmental nuances and learn everyone's names, but the job between sqns/admin offices should be, near enough, identical....

Couldn't have put it better myself and as KG knows, in my last tour, I did my best to get to PSF as much as possible as it was a good way to meet fellow clerks and it also allowed me to keep up to scratch on bits that I didn't normally do in my 'Sqn' job. Plus, we were all swopping knowledge as soon as we found it as this was in the JPA 'learning curve'. Oops, I mean introduction! DT_Xtremez_30: Plus I do want to go onto STANEVAL job for my next tour.

 

[busbyboy]

As someone who has moved sideways(!) from a busy sqn admin into the PSF - the latter days of the 'PSF Elite' have certainly diminished and, with a lot of autonomy being given to the sqn admin offices, my trade knowledge had certainly increased during the 5 years I was there - moreso than my PSF counterparts.

I am now in (takes deep breath) A1 Ops Spt doing the IT thang and also providing specialist (I hate that) support and advice - on the back of nearly 20 years main PFA employment. I hear our MoD and HQ brethren also stating that they may feel out of the loop and excluded from a lot of shiney stuff - but I have also done a HQ registry (odd job man ) and can sympathise with them, it took me a while to get back in the saddle after that tour!!

On another point though, swapping SACs and indeed, cpls around need not be as painful or carry a training burden if all of the jobs are made as standardised as possible on a station. Sure, you are going to get the environmental nuances and learn everyone's names, but the job between sqns/admin offices should be, near enough, identical....

Couldn't have put it better myself. One of the 3 Units that have rolled-back from Devolvement was the prime-mover in that venture, and I still believe it was the right way to go (my decision at the time). But, as a well-known answerphone message used to say, "I am now history", so time will tell!

 

[Humble Scribe]

As someone who has moved sideways(!) from a busy sqn admin into the PSF - the latter days of the 'PSF Elite' have certainly diminished and, with a lot of autonomy being given to the sqn admin offices, my trade knowledge had certainly increased during the 5 years I was there - moreso than my PSF counterparts.

I am now in (takes deep breath) A1 Ops Spt doing the IT thang and also providing specialist (I hate that) support and advice - on the back of nearly 20 years main PFA employment. I hear our MoD and HQ brethren also stating that they may feel out of the loop and excluded from a lot of shiney stuff - but I have also done a HQ registry (odd job man ) and can sympathise with them, it took me a while to get back in the saddle after that tour!!

On another point though, swapping SACs and indeed, cpls around need not be as painful or carry a training burden if all of the jobs are made as standardised as possible on a station. Sure, you are going to get the environmental nuances and learn everyone's names, but the job between sqns/admin offices should be, near enough, identical....

Sorry, I'm not having the arguement that a Sqn Clk is a better rounded clerk than a PSF Clerk - no fecking way. I agree that there are some pretty badly managed PSF's out there but a well ran PSF with Clerks who are up to date on current admin procedures and who feel part of Stn welfare setup are always better than a glorified registry clerk on a Sqn. Yes the 'new' devolved Sqn Admin's have taken the PSF responsibilities from them but they are devolved PSF's not Sqn Admin Offices. Your old style PSF was/is the place to work for 'real' clerks who are not afraid to take responsibility and work on front line admin rather than sit back and 'hide' in a Sqn Registry who blame PSF when they don't know the answer to a complex query. This arguement is based on 27 years experience in 3 PSF's, 1 Sqn & a couple of Innsworth based roles.

I accept times are changing and that Sqn PSF's are now taking on more & more responsibility but don't dare tell me that this was been the case pre JPA because my experience tells me different. I applaud those Sqn Clerks who have embraced their new lease of life under JPA & devolvement but please don't claim that this has always been the norm because it has not!

I await the incoming but please accept that I will be offline for a bit now due to my impending pre-deployment courses so don't think I'm evading your counter arguements!

 

[SgtScribbly]

i totally agree, no way was it the case before devolvement



but it is now DT_Xtremez_19:

 

[busby1971]

A good guy is always a good guy

A good guy is always a good guy

A good clk on a sqn will be a good clk, a good clk in PSF will be a good clk, and vice versa, bad clk blah blah blah.

There are pro's and cons to both locations past and present, whilst I guess there are very few Sqn Adminers who say PSFs don't work hard, there are PSF wallers who might say that Sqn's are an easy life.

All I can say based on my own experience if you are not busy on a Sqn then you are not doing your job, this was Pre JPA for me. Whilst it might not have been an in tray full of piles of the same thing there was plenty of other stuff going on.

 

[smallchange]

I couldn’t let this topic go without having my twopenneth so here goes a few comments and facts in relation to a lot of the related topics in here.

• Unit visits being undertaken at the moment – more to do but those visited have been published in the annex to Pers Bulletin.

• We couldn’t be more approachable – tell us how we can improve?

• Accreditation for both Branch and Trade currently being worked on – looking at IAM, CIPD, CIMA, ACCA, AAT and many more. Suggestions welcome.

• Branch and Trade Title is here to stay – get over it.

• Review of OOA positions being undertaken between, A1 Ops, TS, Manning & PJHQ. Lowered MES personnel are being sent OOA on a case by case basis, DWR exempt positions have been reviewed as they should every 2 years anyway.

• I am not a CM but I have to say they do deploy OOA. The only caveat they have is ensuring that there is only ever 1 away in an area – which seems fair to me. They do try to deploy personnel on a rolling basis rather than at the same time with the consultation of Chf Clks.

• FMDL is reviewed on a regular basis.

• Pay & Personnel area on AirSpace is ran by the same person who runs the A1 Intranet.

• Unable to place E-Goat as a link on both websites as can’t be seen as endorsing it – but would if we could, believe me.

• Management of Pers (Spt) personnel should be managed by Chf Clk’s at unit level (as per Hd of Branch letter). That said, the only person to truly manage our career is OURSELVES. Consider your profile as the Branch do and keep one step ahead.

A lot here but I’m passionate about the trade and I have to say that the current TS is doing a cracking job and as it’s being commented on, he is passionate about the trade and ensuring that we are properly represented. Looking forward to the responses……

 

[KingGuin]

Well said smallchange. I look forward to working with you in my next posting!DT_Xtremez_14:
PS
It's your round!

 

[sorbs]

Smallchange, annex to personnel bulletin states that all RAF units in UK and abroad will be visited. However, there seems to be a few units missing on the list including mine; RAF Prestwick. Will the TS be visiting us?

 

[tommo9999]

Prestwick is not a Unit, it's just a Leuchars Section isn't it?????

 

[Triple SA]

A few things...

A few things...

Throughout my years I have only known movement in one direction, best guys to PSF.

I moved from PSF to a Sqn & the Chf Clk said that I was Ace - I'm not so sure now as he may have just wanted rid of me! I don't agree with the sweeping generalisation that PSF Clerks are better than their Sqn oppos. To my knowledge Drafters have never had the capacity, systems, or even the inclination to be able to post the cream of TG17 into PSFs - it's not like they are picking top Harrier pilots to take over as Stn Cdr Cottesmore! Also Chf Clks don't necessarily know when a talented clk is posted into a Sqn post to be able to poach them; and even when they prove their mettle, I can't imagine Wg Cdr Sqn-Boss letting their top notch SAC/Cpl/Sgt move into PSF to be replaced by a duffer. Also, how do you account for those of us that have worked in and out of PSFs? Are we great in PSF, and then rubbish on a Sqn? When working outside of a PSF I rely (probably wrongly) upon those that I know will give me a great service, rather than rely on some gash shag who may screw it up. I'm sorry to burst your elitist PSF bubble, but the best clks on a Station don't necessarily work in PSF.

Smallchange, annex to personnel bulletin states that all RAF units in UK and abroad will be visited. However, there seems to be a few units missing on the list including mine; RAF Prestwick. Will the TS be visiting us?

I believe that the PB listed those Units that had already been visited, with a commitment to visit the rest by the end of April. I just hope that they are able to visit the many TG17 at the MOD (not Uxbridge/Northolt), as there are quite a few of them working in a diverse range of posts. The most responsibility I ever had was at the MOD, where I was the admin expert for the Directorate, without any meddling from Admin(Sec)/SGC(SPS) officers. Whilst they are there they could take advantage of some of the many pubs in the area - I recommend the Harp near Trafalgar Square for a Sausage Bap & a Pint.

Finally, I was heartened to see Smallchange's post, and whilst he/she may not be the TS, I think that they may be close by (the 'we couldn't be more approachable' gave the game away). Though he/she could have dispelled the notion that CMs get the pick of the OOA posts (I personally believe that if you want a particular OOA post, ask before you are DWRd), and offered assurances that WOs will now take their turn on the OOA roster. However, I applaud the use of other media, such as e-goat and realise that we won't always get the answers that we want.

 

[sorbs]

Prestwick is not a Unit, it's just a Leuchars Section isn't it?????

I'll pass your comment on to my 'Station' Commander. Leuchars has parenting responsibility for Clothing, CCS, RAFFT & Public Accounts.

 

[smallchange]

Smallchange, annex to personnel bulletin states that all RAF units in UK and abroad will be visited. However, there seems to be a few units missing on the list including mine; RAF Prestwick. Will the TS be visiting us?

You are right, there are a lot of units that havent been visited but there are only so many days in the week and there is work to be done as well.

Any unit that hasn't been visited and would like to then all they have to do is ask and i'm sure the TS will oblige where possible.

 

[smallchange]

Well said smallchange. I look forward to working with you in my next posting!DT_Xtremez_14:
PS
It's your round!

Bacardi and coke it is then........