You shouldn't, end of. Furthermore, you should be given a flat rate (not outrageously high but sufficient to eat properly) in advance.
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You shouldn't, end of. Furthermore, you should be given a flat rate (not outrageously high but sufficient to eat properly) in advance.
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Just like everyone has said.
Was a good way of re-compensing your travel away and not feeling out of pocket when you travel. I live in so it's not too bad when claiming for food off receipts but why should a married guy be out of pocket for a course HE HAS TO ATTEND!!!
It's quite frankly a disgrace.
It's up there with people claiming for Daily Subsistence for journeys over 5 hours and made to feel like a criminal for daring buy a choccy bar or bottle of water on top of their meal despite spending much less than the £25/day entitlement.
So yes. It was good as at least you didn't feel out of pocket.
Was a good way of re-compensing your travel away and not feeling out of pocket when you travel. I live in so it's not too bad when claiming for food off receipts but why should a married guy be out of pocket for a course HE HAS TO ATTEND!!!
It's quite frankly a disgrace.
It's up there with people claiming for Daily Subsistence for journeys over 5 hours and made to feel like a criminal for daring buy a choccy bar or bottle of water on top of their meal despite spending much less than the £25/day entitlement.
So yes. It was good as at least you didn't feel out of pocket.
What about those of us not in the mess? Most of my short dets are on Logs Courses at Halton. We have to pay for our brews all week and a coffee in the Chiltern Club costs a good couple of quid. Wifi is avail but you have to pay for it unless your lucky like me and you have BT Openzone and you have to pay to utilise any cleaning facilties there. I personally thought it was disgusting when they got rid of IE but it is yet another thing that can be taken away from us and we dont have any say over it. Just one more nail in the over abused coffin.
I look like Bruce Willis
I Suck Like George Michael
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IE was not, and never has been, to fund your coffee intake young lady. Nor was it to pay for your Wifi. As an NCO I would expect you to be aware of this. Do you need to refamilarise yourself with Appendix 27 to QRs?
Blue suit
Blue suit
It is a money saving measure, if you want it back then something has to go.
It has changed over they years and no one has ever been happy
if my memory is right (not likely though)
1.we had SEP AL paid to the married guys when away from the family home daily no minimum time away etc
that was fair for the married guys, singlies paid out for stuff wherever they were. Naafi beer was same price in most Naafis. but married guys got to steal the beans!
2. that went cos not fair on singlies. so in came LSSA if you were away for a longer time, everyone got it with bonuses if you were away a lot over 12/24 months. Dipped out if you away on a course and could get home at weekends.
3. MIE / PIE 1.50 a day and free food for 30 days. bit more if you were not living in.
4. IE flat £5 (I was surprised!) increase with no down side?????
oh yes everyone pay for your meals in the mess. That's fair now?
last time i went away OOA cost a fortune in childcare , wife had to use all her leave, favors from parents etc
3 months away on courses before paying for honor of eating the slop in the mess. then 4 months away. LSA but no op allowance cos I was stuck up a cold mountain and not on a holiday village in the sun with cheap wifi/ choice of eating establishments and times, R and R and even fireworks all thrown in.
Blue suit
It is a money saving measure, if you want it back then something has to go.
It has changed over they years and no one has ever been happy
if my memory is right (not likely though)
1.we had SEP AL paid to the married guys when away from the family home daily no minimum time away etc
that was fair for the married guys, singlies paid out for stuff wherever they were. Naafi beer was same price in most Naafis. but married guys got to steal the beans!
2. that went cos not fair on singlies. so in came LSSA if you were away for a longer time, everyone got it with bonuses if you were away a lot over 12/24 months. Dipped out if you away on a course and could get home at weekends.
3. MIE / PIE 1.50 a day and free food for 30 days. bit more if you were not living in.
4. IE flat £5 (I was surprised!) increase with no down side?????
oh yes everyone pay for your meals in the mess. That's fair now?
last time i went away OOA cost a fortune in childcare , wife had to use all her leave, favors from parents etc
3 months away on courses before paying for honor of eating the slop in the mess. then 4 months away. LSA but no op allowance cos I was stuck up a cold mountain and not on a holiday village in the sun with cheap wifi/ choice of eating establishments and times, R and R and even fireworks all thrown in.
True Blue Jack
Warrant Officer
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It depends on your point of view. If you were a singly on a course paying full whack for your food and accommodation while the married guy on the same course was eating for free, then a levelling of the playing field was the epitome of fairness.
Several people have said that the loss of IE has meant they have been out of pocket while on short detachments. I'm obviously being thick because I don't understand why. Could someone explain please?
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At last an admission that no one will argue with.
You'd have to be the deaf and blind to believe that there are no out of pocket expenses when you spend a night away from home, it could be as little as a bottle of water because you don't trust the water in the hotel taps or it cold be for an extra tube of toothpaste because your family want to keep their teeth clean as well. If you are stuck on a camp in the middle of nowhere it could be to help with a couple of drinks and a bit of socialising because sitting in your scratcher is just not done nor encouraged.
True Blue Jack
Warrant Officer
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IE was never intended to pay for toothpaste, bottles of water or socialising. Next...
It doesn't matter what it was intended for, it was used to offset the extra costs incurred by personnel on detachment/courses. Perhaps we shouldn't be talking about the reintroduction of IE but the introduction of proper joined up welfare provision?
Not knowing the full background on IE, what exactly was it to cover then.
I thought the term incidental expenditure, pretty well covered everything.
Toothpaste, water, phone call, internet, paper, polish, laundry, cough medicine, transport, toilet roll and even toilets in some case, see how much it COST to use a toilet on a foreign motorway!!!!!
I dont gthink it was ever intended for food and certainly not beer, however being non receiptable did it matter what you spent it on.
I think the PAYD argument is an alltogether different topic, however it is easily linked. I have course after course, TRIM, IPDT, QA etc and yet I will pay for the "pleasure" of attending. Will I have time to nip out at lunch to feed myself at the outlet of my chioce, no not really so its the mess then, captive audience.
Guys appreciate your comments and certainly the examples, all evidence to present a case.
Cheers.
I thought the term incidental expenditure, pretty well covered everything.
Toothpaste, water, phone call, internet, paper, polish, laundry, cough medicine, transport, toilet roll and even toilets in some case, see how much it COST to use a toilet on a foreign motorway!!!!!
I dont gthink it was ever intended for food and certainly not beer, however being non receiptable did it matter what you spent it on.
I think the PAYD argument is an alltogether different topic, however it is easily linked. I have course after course, TRIM, IPDT, QA etc and yet I will pay for the "pleasure" of attending. Will I have time to nip out at lunch to feed myself at the outlet of my chioce, no not really so its the mess then, captive audience.
Guys appreciate your comments and certainly the examples, all evidence to present a case.
Cheers.
As you say point of view, depends if you were the married guy, still paying for a fridge at home to keep your food cold while you are away. and the electric for the oven whilst your wife cooks 1 jacket potato. And council tax to empty your half empty bin that contains the food he should be eating that has gone off because he only got 2 days notice to go on a course.
Before, if you went away you got £5 a day. So a week would give you £25
Now you don't get it so that is £25 out of pocket.
Basic Maths really!
(kids in morning club 2 x £3 a day
load dongle with data works out at 50p a day
few calls to the mobile £1 a day
extra TV license (if you away for a while) 50p a day
bottle of water from the spar £10 ok £1
chuck in cost of a new iron and a few washing/ drying loads
food charge £4?
I make that £13 a day I had to pay to be away)
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Well if you can provide a referenced definitive list I'll bend to your better knowledge.
Here's the collins dictionary definition:
expenses that are incidental or minor
And here's HRMCs:
Definitions or restrictions
You pay no more than £5 per night (£10 per night for travel outside the UK) to cover incidental non-business expenses incurred by an employee while travelling overnight on business. Examples of incidental expenses include:
buying newspapers
paying for laundry
phoning home
Note this says examples not are restricted to, isn't phoning home socialising?
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What if I had diverted? I would take that 5 or 10 quid and use it as best I saw fit...If that happened to be an emergency wash kit because I'd diverted on company time then so be it.
There are some times TBJ when you leave the realms of reality in your search for a rise out of people on here...No-one is assessing you for what you say on Goat so come on and join the human race...If your company sends you somewhere on their business then they should look after you...It may not be to rock star standards but I would expect [and do presently enjoy] a reasonable deal...They'll pay for a decent feed, keep me hydrated and ensure that I'm not out of pocket for staple items that assist me in successfully operating away from homeplate.
That said it's their trainset so therefore their rules...and they are upheld and supported by people of such little backbone and yet such enormous anality that common sense has long since left the building...so if you don't like the way you are being treated the door marked exit is clearly marked.
True Blue Jack
Warrant Officer
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Unusually, I am not looking for a rise out of people on this subject. IE, for the 3 or so years that we had it as a flat rate, was free money and while I was as happy as anybody else to claim it when entitled I wasn't very surprised when it was abolished during the last major allowances review. For that reason I think that trying to re-introduce it as it was is guaranteed to fail.
It was comforting to know that if, e.g., you needed an extra tube of toothpaste when you went on such-and-such a course, your claim for IE would cover it. But the only time I ever actually used IE to buy a newspaper, phone home or do laundry (the expenditure for which it was designed as published in JSP 752 at the time - busby, I know you know this) was in those nightmare early days of JPA when IE was receipted. Excepting for that, whenever I could claim IE it paid for a couple of pints each day, which is not something I think the Great British taxpayer would consider a sensible use of their money.
People should not be out of pocket when sent away from their home unit for whatever reason, on that I think we can all agree. What I would like people to do - and I suspect what is actually being asked of the OP - is to identify in exactly what circumstances they are finding themselves out of pocket. Toothpaste and beer will not win our case, although I think RAFBird's point about coffee may have more chance of success.
It was comforting to know that if, e.g., you needed an extra tube of toothpaste when you went on such-and-such a course, your claim for IE would cover it. But the only time I ever actually used IE to buy a newspaper, phone home or do laundry (the expenditure for which it was designed as published in JSP 752 at the time - busby, I know you know this) was in those nightmare early days of JPA when IE was receipted. Excepting for that, whenever I could claim IE it paid for a couple of pints each day, which is not something I think the Great British taxpayer would consider a sensible use of their money.
People should not be out of pocket when sent away from their home unit for whatever reason, on that I think we can all agree. What I would like people to do - and I suspect what is actually being asked of the OP - is to identify in exactly what circumstances they are finding themselves out of pocket. Toothpaste and beer will not win our case, although I think RAFBird's point about coffee may have more chance of success.
TBJ - Actually out of pocket: Well how about having to pay for food whilst away from home, every day at around £4 plus as previously mentioned you can't pop home for a cuppa you're beholden to overpriced machines if you want a brew. So food plus a minimum of 2 brews a day (at a £1 each) = £6 a day.
5 day course with an early stack on Friday but arriving for tea Sunday = £30 out of pocket a week.
So that's just the basics to survive no luxuries or toothpaste there and nothing for the tax payer to moan about, no company would expect its employees to go on a course (and no tax payer would expect to go on one) and pay for food and beverages (Non-alcoholic). I save virtually no money in the fact that I'm not eating at home as the wife and 2 kids still have the same size meals and the shopping bill is still the same each week whether I'm there or not.
5 day course with an early stack on Friday but arriving for tea Sunday = £30 out of pocket a week.
So that's just the basics to survive no luxuries or toothpaste there and nothing for the tax payer to moan about, no company would expect its employees to go on a course (and no tax payer would expect to go on one) and pay for food and beverages (Non-alcoholic). I save virtually no money in the fact that I'm not eating at home as the wife and 2 kids still have the same size meals and the shopping bill is still the same each week whether I'm there or not.
Can I just add.. out here in Civvystrasse.. when I am on the road on company business, I am NEVER out of pocket - the company makes sure of that. Its been a real culture change, I can tell you because when I was in, I was living on the bones of my arse attempting not be out of pocket whilst away on courses etc.
True Blue Jack
Warrant Officer
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Expenditure on tea and coffee I agree with totally as I do with FOMz's comparison with civvy street - we keep trying to copy private sector practices in other areas after all. Paying for food is a different discussion because that was never meant to be covered by IE, although it is a discussion worth having I think. The decision to abolish the married unaccompanied food charge can only have been made by someone who has never tried to work out why it seems to cost as much to feed a family of 3 as it does a family of 4.
Soon To Leave
Proud To Serve
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I think the biggest anomaly is that if you are detached and go in a hotel, everything is paid for. If you go in the block/mess you always lose out. IE should have continued where on-base accommodation was used.
BillyBunter
Techie & Proud
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Well where I am right now , people refuse to take extra courses now as the expenditure is just too much when you have to pay for it all yourself. Im not saying its right or wrong, if you want to progress in your career you will do 6 weeks at Marham and be out of pocket but not many people are caring about career progression, doing extra for assesments, secondary duties all that . Its a changing RAF now that was caused years ago by changes and bad decisions, brining back IE will not change one thing if im perfectly honest. The 2 years of stagnated wages and extra workload is of more importance in my view.