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DE snecks has got to be the route, get them in younger and have some productive years from them. Snecks as Controllers, WO sups, 1 X Flt Cdr\SATCO to run the office and bin the rest of the commisioned lot. FOM to do 1st RO bit, or give guidance to baby snecks as happens now, and to be trade specialist for station; FS to do second RO, Sir to do 3rd RO if necessary. Cash saving and a happier tower all round methinks. The only thing stopping this trade\branch going civvy is the OOA commitment. :PDT_Xtremez_14:
 
There you go FL100,

We have just saved the RAF millions, will email it to the sponsor now!

Right all we need to do now is sort the Scopie merger out
 
SirSaltyHelmet said:




Right all we need to do now is sort the Scopie merger out
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Thats easy, just get our LACs to do their job...

Joking asside, if they decide that we must have a large Officer corps in the towers, why not have them ALL promoted from the SNCO levels?
 
SirSaltyHelmet said:
Why not just have SNCO controllers like the yanks, apart from a few commissioned ones
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That would be better, but can you really see them letting all those posts go? The old argument was always, "We need a large manpool to chose future SATCOs, Supervisors and Instructors from." I think they will hang on to as many posts as they can...They will kick and fight and scream as loud as they can to save their jobs, and Lean won't get a look in.

(And I know that there are SNCO instructors, but you know what I mean.)
 
FL100 said:
DE snecks has got to be the route, get them in younger and have some productive years from them. Snecks as Controllers, WO sups, 1 X Flt Cdr\SATCO to run the office and bin the rest of the commisioned lot. FOM to do 1st RO bit, or give guidance to baby snecks as happens now, and to be trade specialist for station; FS to do second RO, Sir to do 3rd RO if necessary. Cash saving and a happier tower all round methinks. The only thing stopping this trade\branch going civvy is the OOA commitment. :PDT_Xtremez_14:
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Getting them in younger for more productive years has already been addressed by fast tracking.
DE has always been rejected by the 'grande fromages' because of it being perceived to create an 'elite' ground trade and only Aircrew can DE.
It is strange considering our Zobs DE anyway.
I don't know, it just doesn't 'feel' right to me. I'm sure someone out there can put it more eloquently than I can. But I just think its B ollo cks.
 
Nope, on it at the moment.
To expand a bit about my feelings, however, I have worked with plenty of fast trackers, I am yet to meet any of the 'so called' arrogant ones.
By and large, they have all been pretty switched on cookies, and have fitted into the tower smoothly.
Even the ones I have met who have been through JATCC and Graduated have been absolutely fine, the 2 on the course with us are great lads and get on fine with no problems.
In fact the only thing that really grips my sh1t are the guys (usually under the old terms) who get accepted for JATCC, turn up, do a couple of weeks, and bin it.
FFS what was the point? Most of them were pretty unsure about it to begin with (perfectly natural) then when it gets tough, suddenly profess that all they ever wanted to do was Ops anyway.
Takes up everyone's time, including their own. Leaves their own unit short, and takes the place of Fast Trackers and non-Fast trackers waiting for their chance.
Of course there will always be special cases, but if you've been in a tower at all, you're going to have a pretty good idea of what the job entails. It grips my sh1te and no mistake.
I just have a deep feeling of unease about the future experience levels for towers in the future, DE is only going to exasperate the problem.
I do agree whole heartedly about FOM's being 1st RO for all the boys and girls, He/She is the one who should have the best idea on their job and capabilities, also, if Tower's work shifts, the FOM is the only one to see the guys with any regularity.
As a Cpl, I was constantly being asked for my assessment on the boys and girls when 6000 time was due. This is perfectly normal, and I was happy to do it as honestly as I could. However, I always knew that whatever I may say would then be filtered through the SNEC who was doing the asking, who would have had plenty of assessments under his/her belt on which to write up a fair and reasonable report.
Fast trackers are not going to be so well advantaged, DE's even less so.
Rant off.
 
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A Fair bit, yes, every one of the mincing, 'I tried but it was too hard, and I always wanted to be an opsy anyway' whingeing flake outs would test my ability to resist kicking them in the slats till they passed out.

Losers.::P:
 
Thing is though, the 1st tour officers do not have the expirience of handling the guys, so why not have the same issues with the SNCO, fast track SNCO do not have those abilites yet either. Leave it the FOMs, it is their cup of tea to be honest. Let the controllers control. I remember a trade sponsor saying " Controllers first, SNCO second". They can develop their management skills after they have got used to the art of controlling. Simple
 
SirSaltyHelmet said:
Thing is though, the 1st tour officers do not have the expirience of handling the guys, so why not have the same issues with the SNCO, fast track SNCO do not have those abilites yet either. Leave it the FOMs, it is their cup of tea to be honest. Let the controllers control. I remember a trade sponsor saying " Controllers first, SNCO second". They can develop their management skills after they have got used to the art of controlling. Simple
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I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately you will get the SATCO who looks down on any non controller as an inferior and decides that "It's very useful for the development of the SNCO Controllers for them to take an active part the appraisal process." Alternatively there have been Tower FOM's who were far to busy with a range of very important matters to get involved in the Airmen's appraisals. I think we all know how the system should work but the personalities of the key players can have an effect.

I never thought that there was a need for Fast Trackers. There was enough flexibility within the old system to allow people to enter the course at a younger age. Perhaps it needed tweaking rather than replacing. There is one Fast Track Controller at my place and he seems to be really switched on and is nice guy to work with. The only Fast Track Assistant we have is a total cock and I have certainly trained and worked with much better people who aren't on the Fast Track.
 
Oh FFS, someone starts a reasonable thread and it quickly shoots-off in a controller vs. FOM discussion.

FWIW, I think that the 'drawing together' (note I haven't used the amalgamation word) of TG9 and TG12 is not only inevitable, it makes imminent sense. There is so much overlap in aptitude (and a lot of skill-set commonality as well) that we would be mad to dismiss the idea. Combine this with the loss of radar assistant posts at the area radar units by about 2010 (about 100 cpl/SACs) and it is obvious that we need to ensure enough posts for blue suit opsies to support OOA commitments.

If I were TG9 I would be welcoming such an initiative.
 
It wasn't a Controller vs FOM thing. I was just refering to the 1st RO issue. How you feel to have your OJAR done by a 1st tourist controller? Thought not.
 
FL100 said:
The only thing stopping this trade\branch going civvy is the OOA commitment. :PDT_Xtremez_14:
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you may be aware that there is an ex ATC Wg Cdr who now works for a civilian contractor that specialises in military contracts. So start i would start ducking and weaving if I were you. I think the quality of fast track controllers I have seen has been good on the whole. Although once a cock, always a cock, this applies to some AATC who would never have been promoted on their own merit, but now wear the rank by virtue of passing JATCC. There are one or two odd bods on the FOM side aswell to be fair, you will always get someone who slips through the net (SSH, ha ha) I am not convinced by the fast track system as its an ability based skill. You can either do it or you cant, so why not get them through after a shorter period of service than they have now? Perhaps this route of accelerating juniors through could be a half way house between DE and what can be a overly long gestation period, for some individuals that have talent. SSH, I consider myself banter proof for now as I will be "off the net" for at least 10 days, berate away as I trundle slowly to northern climes.
 
SirSaltyHelmet said:
Bit harsh. I zero'd my scores!
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Sorry SSH wasn't having a pop at those who zero their scores. Far from it. It's the chancers and wasters (of whom I have seen a few rock up to here, and watched depart from my previous Units to go on their course) only for them to reappear a couple of weeks later with the excuse that it made their ears go pop.
How they got assessed to be suitable in the first place I will never know. (although in certain cases I have a fairly good idea!)
DE's would at least have the advantage of having had to go through Cranwell first, which would, hopefully, weed out the lazy and uncommitted.
It's not the sort of thing you just decide to have a go at, It takes commitment and hard work, some people seem to forget that.
For the record, I loved being an Opsy, Sqn Ops particularly. It is the one thing I will miss a great deal when I finish up here, I always thought it was the greatest shame that no fast tracker would ever have the chance to work on a Sqn.
Saying that, If I f@ck this up, I will be happy to go back to a Sqn, but I won't pretend it was what I always wanted all along. I will be dissapointed but at least I did give it a proper go, Not just a couple of weeks mincing about doing Met and human Factors FFS!
I have just finished the assessed phase and am waiting on my scores now, If I have to, I will do the whole lot again!
Rant off (again!):PDT_Xtremez_42:
 
General Slim said:
Rumours are begiining to float to the surface that work is being carried out at a secret Midlands airbase that a study group has been formed. Its basis or remit to bring the scopies, Air Carts and us FOAs together as one, girls and boys your thoughts please............................
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As always, GS is full of bullsh1t.::/:
 
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