PAYD Contract and facilities in the block

[spike7451]

I thought the whole point of PAYD was to offer more choice when and what you eat? For example, if we don't want to eat in the mess we don't have to.

Seems like they are not fulfilling that.

Here up north, it's scandalous. The only veg option you have is chips, beans and sweetcorn. The salad choice is lacking, i.e has had no lettuce for days... since when was there a national lettuce shortage???. And if you want to eat healthy fruit salad you have to pay extra, but higher fat cake is part of the core meal. And no way can you get enough protein, lack of meat seems to be their number 1 way of saving money.

The raf harp on about "fit for op's" but you'll struggle to be all that you can be, eating the stodge that they serve up.

I don't blame the cooks as they try with what they get. It seems a contract / ISS fault thats shafting our very own guys.

Bit like an army camp I was at a couple years ago,wasn't PAYD but the food was shocking.Everything bought in & reheated,swimming in grease & the diet was more suited to children,being stuff like fish fingers,chips & those processes 'meat' rib things.
Oh we got salad but it was all chopped up in a big bowl with about an inch of liquid at the bottom of the bowl.

 

[endgame]

Strikes me that if they take out the cooking facilities people will still cook but it'll happen in the confines of their own room. There will be fuses blowing due to the domestic ring not being able to cope with all those george foreman grills, fire alarms going off, then the powers that be will try to ban all cooking equipment from rooms .. there will be charges, and possibly a fire or two before somesenoir officer gets a pat on the back for having the great idea of putting kithchens in the blocks ... Our leaders are taught the OODA loop idea, except they include an F and P and are taught the FOODAP loop.this stands for F!ck the troops around, Observe, orient, decide, act, Promotion!!

 

[Toffee-Scouser]

Luckily common sense seems to have been taken into account here by block SNCO's who mysteriously go blind when kitchens contain cooking hardware (unless it hasn't been PAT Tested or cleaned), even if SLA Orders state charges for anyone owning said items

 

[dkh51250]

How can you be charged for "owning" something? How have they worded the order?

 

[Gopher]

There just building the SLAM at a secret Cambridge base..W, the company who are knitting out the SLAM are Aramark and we've heard roomers that all their providing are microwaves, guess who's running the PAY as you starve...Aramark...guess were fooked.

 

[UlsterExile]

Think that may be the same JSP my mate was talking about. Stated the amount of cupboards per person, prep space, plugs etc


Sent from my iPhone using my thumb.

You are correct, this happened when PAYD was brought in at a secret test facility in wilts. JSP references were found and a loose minute was sent to OC RAFSU. Needless to say she wasn't very happy with the SNCO cadre as she now couldn't spend her budget on anything else. Stn Cdr's forget these things called JSP which run the MOD. We had a nice kitchen fitted to our accommodation as well
as washing machine, tumble dryer, microwave and fridge. This is a set ratio for how many people you have in you accommodation.

 

[Toffee-Scouser]

How can you be charged for "owning" something? How have they worded the order?

they are stating the current draw is a fire hazard. Although the fire station has denied they have ever said anything along those lines, and they are fine with people cooking in the blocks

 

[Realist78]

they are stating the current draw is a fire hazard. Although the fire station has denied they have ever said anything along those lines, and they are fine with people cooking in the blocks

After all, people cook in houses or so I'm told.DT_Xtremez_28:

 

[fat lazy techie]

Simple answer, the carnivores idea of heaven, BBQ outside the block every night. Not sure how things operate at the Secret Oxfordshire Fustercluck of an AT hub as I'm at the local Mil Tech.

 

[Toffee-Scouser]

we tried that, fire section apparently got very annoyed about it.....Despite the fact that they weren't

 

[ZBM2]

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/653666C3-44C1-4B9E-A6D3-0BD3E4859035/0/JSP456_Vol4_Ch1.pdf

Extract from JSP 456 DCM Volume 4 (From above link):

106. Single Living Accommodation Module (SLAM). The introduction of CRL and other
authority projects such as SLAM have made a significant difference in the way personnel cater for themselves. Many living-in personnel prefer to utilise kitchenette facilities in SLAM
accommodation on a self-help basis rather than take meals in the dining room. Consequently, sales of retail and cook chill offers through shops and other outlets may increase.

This implies we would be able to utilise cooking facilities in the block.

Extracts from JSP 315 (Scale 3):

WHITE GOODS
04a A commercial model washing machine and tumble dryer, together with their necessary plumbing and extracts, are to be provided on a scale of one of each machine for every 6 persons. This will usually be in the utility room, but exceptionally may be provided as a central laundrette as described in Scale 56
.
04b The utility room will be equipped with a commercial grade microwave oven (designed for heavy duty use) and a refrigerator on a scale of one for every 6 persons. A microwave oven and refrigerator will not be provided for X standard.
[TABLE="width: 671"] [TR] [TD]Serial[/TD] [TD]Accommodation[/TD] [TD]Area[/TD] [TD]M & E Services[/TD] [TD]Planning Notes, Special Fittings etc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]05[/TD] [TD]Utility Room
a Laundry/ Cleaning















b Drying




c Ironing/Airing


d Snack Preparation
[/TD] [TD]1.4m2 per person[/TD] [TD]Illumination - 225 lux for a, c, and d, 175 lux for b,
Electric Power - Four 13A double socket outlets. Power supply as necessary for washing machine, tumble dryer, refrigerator and microwave.
Water Supply - for a, Hot and cold. Service connections for washing and drying machines;
- for d Hot and cold
Ventilation - for a, and c, where adequate natural ventilation is not available, mechanical extraction is to be provided.
Ventilation for b - Circulation and extract fans all to requirements of items to be dried.
Extractor to be positioned over snack preparation area.
[/TD] [TD]To serve flat (option 1), or groups of 20 (option 2)
a. 1 deep sink unit (option 1) or 3 deep sinks (option2) with draining board and cupboards under. Washing machine and tumble dryer. Cupboard (600mmW x 600mmD) of standard wardrobe height for bedroom cleaning materials etc.

b. Drying cupboard (600mm deep) with slatted shelving and plastic covered hanging rails with captive hangars. Plastic strip curtain. 600mm run of rail per person (1/3 full length, 2/3 half length). Shoe rails at 0.3m run per person. Floor gulley.

c. Airing space off ironing area. Ceiling airer with plastic covered rails.

Work top, 1800mm run with small sink unit and two (250mm) hob heaters inset. Storage cupboards over worktop to provide individually lockable space of 0.06m[SUP]3 [/SUP]per person (individual space optional in hotel layout). One drinking water tap. Notice Board. Refrigerator and microwave.
[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]
The table lists standards for Z type. Obviously we have different grading of this type, but there as I understand it, we should be entitiled to hobs, microwaves & fridges.

Hope this helps.

 

[fed_up_scribbly]

Extract from JSP 456 DCM Volume 4 (From above link):

106. Single Living Accommodation Module (SLAM). The introduction of CRL and other
authority projects such as SLAM have made a significant difference in the way personnel cater for themselves. Many living-in personnel prefer to utilise kitchenette facilities in SLAM
accommodation on a self-help basis rather than take meals in the dining room. Consequently, sales of retail and cook chill offers through shops and other outlets may increase.

This implies we would be able to utilise cooking facilities in the block.




I've done an infra job in the past and although you are correct in identifying that SLA is scaled for kitchen items it doesn't mean that there is an entitlement - Fire Sections, Stn Energy Managers, H&S Officers and CO's etc can all decide that these items are not to be provided. From my experience at a Fife Airbase the block kitchens in almost all cases were kept in a minging condition (some fridges and their contents defied belief) which prompted the then Stn Cdr to have them removed - and to be honest I couldn't blame him.

Another reason that may preclude installation is the capacity of the electrical supply to the blocks in question, although this tends to affect older SLA more than the new.

 

[Weebl]

I've done an infra job in the past and although you are correct in identifying that SLA is scaled for kitchen items it doesn't mean that there is an entitlement - Fire Sections, Stn Energy Managers, H&S Officers and CO's etc can all decide that these items are not to be provided. From my experience at a Fife Airbase the block kitchens in almost all cases were kept in a minging condition (some fridges and their contents defied belief) which prompted the then Stn Cdr to have them removed - and to be honest I couldn't blame him.

Another reason that may preclude installation is the capacity of the electrical supply to the blocks in question, although this tends to affect older SLA more than the new.

How does that work? It says quite clearly in the JSP that certain facilities WILL be provided, not should or might be?

The RAF (and the MOD) point to these JSP's as a set of rules that they comply to when people question the standards we are expected to live under. If they are not actually rules but just some words you can ignore if you feel like it, why bother writing them? What other JSP's are we all free to ignore because they don't quite suit?

 

[ZBM2]

I've done an infra job in the past and although you are correct in identifying that SLA is scaled for kitchen items it doesn't mean that there is an entitlement - Fire Sections, Stn Energy Managers, H&S Officers and CO's etc can all decide that these items are not to be provided. From my experience at a Fife Airbase the block kitchens in almost all cases were kept in a minging condition (some fridges and their contents defied belief) which prompted the then Stn Cdr to have them removed - and to be honest I couldn't blame him.

Another reason that may preclude installation is the capacity of the electrical supply to the blocks in question, although this tends to affect older SLA more than the new.

I do agree with the reasons you have stated. I too have been in some blocks that had fridges provided and they were not maintained and some of the food stuff inside had its own civilization growing on it! This is solved by the block NCOs ensuring that communal spaces are kept to a high standard; if not bull night. Ultimately removal of said facility if not kept to standard.

My block for example is an old(ish) 80s block, the entire block has recently been renovated (ELAM) so there is adequate support for kitchen electrical items. There is no microwave oven or hobs. The station is now PAYD.

One of the points of PAYD is that it's supposed to promote flexibility in your eating habits. No longer are you tied to the opening and closing times of the mess. If you miss dinner because of work, gym or something else there needs to be a facility to cook some food.

By enforcing a rule whereby the station decrees that cooking facilities are not to be provided forces personnel to put microwaves, toasty machines, toasters etc. in their rooms. I know this is against SSOs, but how else would a station expect singlies to cook for themselves?

If these publications are there for guidance, I think it is strongly encouraged guidance. Plus if you look at the extract from the JSP 315 it states:

"04b The utility room will be equipped with a commercial grade microwave oven (designed for heavy duty use) and a refrigerator on a scale of one for every 6 persons. A microwave oven and refrigerator will not be provided for X standard"

The word will means they must provide said items.

 

[techie_tubby]

I've done an infra job in the past and although you are correct in identifying that SLA is scaled for kitchen items it doesn't mean that there is an entitlement - Fire Sections, Stn Energy Managers, H&S Officers and CO's etc can all decide that these items are not to be provided. From my experience at a Fife Airbase the block kitchens in almost all cases were kept in a minging condition (some fridges and their contents defied belief) which prompted the then Stn Cdr to have them removed - and to be honest I couldn't blame him.

Another reason that may preclude installation is the capacity of the electrical supply to the blocks in question, although this tends to affect older SLA more than the new.

That's where the block SNCO's should be jumping all over. Bull night after bull night after bull night. The block will either get the hint and maintain the standards or the people who keep leaving it a tip will be "told" what they are doing wrong.

 

[Realist78]

How does that work? It says quite clearly in the JSP that certain facilities WILL be provided, not should or might be?

The RAF (and the MOD) point to these JSP's as a set of rules that they comply to when people question the standards we are expected to live under. If they are not actually rules but just some words you can ignore if you feel like it, why bother writing them? What other JSP's are we all free to ignore because they don't quite suit?[/QUOTE]

Why bother writing them? Or simply publish a list of those that are considered mandatory and those that can be ignored by uber management. What a crock of sh1te!

 

[fed_up_scribbly]

How does that work? It says quite clearly in the JSP that certain facilities WILL be provided, not should or might be?

The RAF (and the MOD) point to these JSP's as a set of rules that they comply to when people question the standards we are expected to live under. If they are not actually rules but just some words you can ignore if you feel like it, why bother writing them? What other JSP's are we all free to ignore because they don't quite suit?

Fair point but if you read further on in the JSP it also says that

"UTILITY FACILITIES

05 The requirement for utility facilities will vary not only between the Services but also between different types of unit in each Service. The facilities detailed under the heading of "Utility Area" at Part 1 and "Utility Room" at Part 3 are to be regarded as a maximum provision, which will not be required by every unit."

As you can see the scalings are a maximum provision and units are able to decide themselves if they require the full scaling of items to be installed- in many cases they have merely decided that they do not require them for one reason or another, usually on budgetary grounds (i.e they don't have the money to pay for it!).

 

[Weebl]

As you can see the scalings are a maximum provision and units are able to decide themselves if they require the full scaling of items to be installed- in many cases they have merely decided that they do not require them for one reason or another, usually on budgetary grounds (i.e they don't have the money to pay for it!).

So what they have done is write a JSP that states people have choice and which lays out that they WILL have a certain amount of fixtures and fittings (which they can conveniently point to when criticised over living standards) and then caveat it at the bottom meaning they might as well have not bothered writing it, saved the time and just written 'take what you are given, like it or lump it'

Who writes 'you WILL have a fridge between 6 people' and then small prints it to actually mean 'you might have no fridges, but if we do give you one you can only have one between 6, if we can afford it and if nobody has taken a bung to not fit them so you have to go to the mess and line a commercial companies pockets'

What a load of sh1te.

 

[Space_Cowby]

I used to use JSP315 when working for DHE.

Somewhere near the front it states words the effect that the JSP is for new provisions only and not for existing facilities so it might not be much help.

This reason was used in when customers complained about crap MQ.

 

[ZBM2]

I used to use JSP315 when working for DHE.

Somewhere near the front it states words the effect that the JSP is for new provisions only and not for existing facilities so it might not be much help.

This reason was used in when customers complained about crap MQ.

Yes you are correct to a point. Scale 1 of JSP315 indicates:

"The scales apply particularly to the provision of new permanent buildings but will also form the basis for the modernisation or conversion of existing permanent buildings. A permanent building is defined as one which has a future life of at least 20 years with normal maintenance"

So the details in my previous post still apply to current structures. Now because SLAM has fallen on its feet, a number of block are now be 'modernised' to bring them up to a decent standard. During the modernisation process, why not supply microwaves, toasters and hobs at least. Most singlies have small fridges in their rooms already.

Also, as per my previous post, one of the main points of PAYD was to promote flexibility in your eating habits. That was how it was explained to me during a presentation.

You are not allowed anything but a small fridge and a kettle in your room. Anything else contravenes SSOs. And yes there is a fire hazard as the ring main is not designed for toasters and the like in the block. That's why houses have their oven/cooker on separate feeds etc.

So if PAYD is actually meant to promote flexibility in your eating habits; and you can't cook in your own room, where do you go to eat a hot meal if there are no cooking facilities in the block? I think i can answer with a few suggestions:

Pot Noodle!, Ginsters, Any fast food joint etc... That is really promoting healthy eating isn't it?