Retention for Pers Admin

[Shiney Pencil]

We all know the trade is getting smaller and the number of people leaving the trade is not getting any smaller. We need 600 SAC's to fully fill the 1377 quota but 4 out of 10 SAC's at my unit have PVR'd.

I too am going leave in about two years once my MSc is complete as civvy wages seem a lot better. Anybody got any suggestions for retention?

 

[True Blue Jack]

Retention is not something our lords and masters are looking too closely at because we have far more Sgts than we need if we are to conform to the 'ideal pyramid' that crops up every now and again.

People joining now should be OK because by the time they are competitive for promotion the current turbulence will be ancient history. That said, I joined in the year of Options for Change and I was told the uncertainty faced by 8-year SACs at the time would not be a problem for any of my generation of clerks. They were right, in a way, it's now I am a 15-year Cpl that I am looking ahead to an uncertain future.

 

[Shiney Pencil]

Retention for SAC's is what I was aiming at, if we need 600 and we have them PVRing left right and centre are we ever gonna get the ideal structure?

 

[Humble Scribe]

Whilst we do need to lose Sgt's, we also need to retain SAC's. FRI is one suggestion (eg Gunners, FFtrs) or even a strong case from Sec Sponsor to put Cpl's on higher pay band.



.......and before you say it'll never happen, think about the barrier operators!

 

[KingGuin]

Evening All. A couple of points if I may?

The FMDL is 84% and is forecast to rise. Recruitment is not a problem, why do we need to retain? - discuss.

Cpls on a higher pay band - how would you justify that?

 

[Shiney Pencil]

Ok recruitment may not be the problem but what about retention of current staff? The only qualification you gain out of PABC is an NVQ 2 in Business Admin, which, to be fair, is pants. Should we not be promoting people to get involved with CIPD stuff??? Not everyone's cup of tea I know but for high calabre individuals accross the rank spectrum could make people think twice before banging out. Any Thoughts?

 

[Kernow]

Evening All. A couple of points if I may?

The FMDL is 84% and is forecast to rise. Recruitment is not a problem, why do we need to retain? - discuss.

Cpls on a higher pay band - how would you justify that?

Quite simply how I see it is whilst Recruitment may not be a problem where is your experience going to come from for promotions? It's ok topping up the trade but at some point the SACs would become very diluted in terms of experience. Thus leaving you with very slim pickings for prom to cpl. We need to look at how we entice them to stay in (maybe not a 10 grand FRI how about day trip tickets to Thorpe Park!)

 

[True Blue Jack]

Ok recruitment may not be the problem but what about retention of current staff? The only qualification you gain out of PABC is an NVQ 2 in Business Admin, which, to be fair, is pants. Should we not be promoting people to get involved with CIPD stuff??? Not everyone's cup of tea I know but for high calabre individuals accross the rank spectrum could make people think twice before banging out. Any Thoughts?

I can see a real problem looming in the next 5 years or so if we fail to retain high-calibre administrators, but I don't see how. Putting us onto the higher pay range at any rank level is never going to happen - and the techies were upset enough when RAFP moved up!! Retention incentives a la gunner/firefighter may be useful to retain some SACs but to be frank we need more to retain the experience found at the junior managerial levels (Cpl/Sgt) - the exact levels where we are trying to shed posts.

CIPD is a great qualification but we will never be sponsored as a trade to gain it for 2 reasons: it is very expensive (which is why I am waiting till I qualify for the higher rate ELC to start) and it is too valuable in civvy street. A fully-fledged member of the institute can earn more (sometimes much more) than a WO Pers Admin from the minute he qualifies.

The Institute of Administrative Management may be a good halfway house but I personally don't think it is valuable enough to be a good retention tool.

 

[Shiney Pencil]

I can see a real problem looming in the next 5 years or so if we fail to retain high-calibre administrators, but I don't see how. Putting us onto the higher pay range at any rank level is never going to happen - and the techies were upset enough when RAFP moved up!! Retention incentives a la gunner/firefighter may be useful to retain some SACs but to be frank we need more to retain the experience found at the junior managerial levels (Cpl/Sgt) - the exact levels where we are trying to shed posts.

CIPD is a great qualification but we will never be sponsored as a trade to gain it for 2 reasons: it is very expensive (which is why I am waiting till I qualify for the higher rate ELC to start) and it is too valuable in civvy street. A fully-fledged member of the institute can earn more (sometimes much more) than a WO Pers Admin from the minute he qualifies.

The Institute of Administrative Management may be a good halfway house but I personally don't think it is valuable enough to be a good retention tool.

Some good points here. I have only been in 5 years and have decided to start a MSc in HRM as a starting point to full CIPD membership. As per usual with the MoD it comes down to cost, although the Institute of Administrative Management might be a good idea. Maybe the trade should look at sponsorship of CIPD and ensure a return of service of 3-5 years, like the officers who go to Uni to get their MSc and have to do a 3 year ROS.

If I was offered full CIPD for a 5 year ROS I would jump at the chance. Again not everyone's cup of tea.

 

[KingGuin]

Quite simply how I see it is whilst Recruitment may not be a problem where is your experience going to come from for promotions? It's ok topping up the trade but at some point the SACs would become very diluted in terms of experience. Thus leaving you with very slim pickings for prom to cpl. We need to look at how we entice them to stay in (maybe not a 10 grand FRI how about day trip tickets to Thorpe Park!)

K, Let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment. Who are we trying to retain? In my Air Force I would be glad to be rid of dead wood; let's be honest if you can't make Cpl after 6 years service you surely are not as good as those that have done? If, like SP you are already using RAF dosh to feather your nest for the outside world then you are partially out of the door already so do I really want you working for me? That said, what makes a good clerk? - is it experience or the ability to learn? Either or really. Advocacy over.

In my book it's quite simple, you either want to be in or you don't. If you do then you work hard enough to get picked up, if you don't, leave and someone else takes your place. Its been like that since the day I joined and I doubt it will ever change.

 

[shiny_arse]

K, Let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment. Who are we trying to retain? In my Air Force I would be glad to be rid of dead wood; let's be honest if you can't make Cpl after 6 years service you surely are not as good as those that have done? If, like SP you are already using RAF dosh to feather your nest for the outside world then you are partially out of the door already so do I really want you working for me? That said, what makes a good clerk? - is it experience or the ability to learn? Either or really. Advocacy over.

In my book it's quite simple, you either want to be in or you don't. If you do then you work hard enough to get picked up, if you don't, leave and someone else takes your place. Its been like that since the day I joined and I doubt it will ever change.

KG,

Whereas I agree with you in principal, I cannot relate to the fact that if you can't make Cpl within 6 years you are not as good as others who have. It took me 7.5 years to get my tapes. Aside from the fact that I was in amongst the promotion crawl of the mid 90's, I was receiving good reports, was specifically trawled with 2 others due to positive reporting for VIP duties, regardless of receiving 6 & specs within that world, promotion was still dead and others were getting the pick up. A further 2 reports after VIP duties I was at the end of my tether as what had to be done to get promoted and a career brief was on the cards just before I came off the board at no 2.

There is a load of similar SAC's out there who are an asset to the trade and the RAF. Unfortunately there is also a load of worries about what the future holds for them. As much as the promises out there are stating that career and promotion are going to be maintained unlike the mid 90's, there is still cause for concern that many will be treading water fighting for the same promotion opportunities that their colleagues are chasing.

Some type of recognition needs to be realised in order to keep these people motivated before the dead wood and doom mongerers bring them down.

 

[Hu Jardon]

K, Let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment. Who are we trying to retain? In my Air Force I would be glad to be rid of dead wood; let's be honest if you can't make Cpl after 6 years service you surely are not as good as those that have done? If, like SP you are already using RAF dosh to feather your nest for the outside world then you are partially out of the door already so do I really want you working for me? That said, what makes a good clerk? - is it experience or the ability to learn? Either or really. Advocacy over.

In my book it's quite simple, you either want to be in or you don't. If you do then you work hard enough to get picked up, if you don't, leave and someone else takes your place. Its been like that since the day I joined and I doubt it will ever change.

OR
If you have to offer, or have even got to consider offering, a financial retention incentive to:

Aircrew
Flightcrew
Firemen
Gunners
movers
Admners
Civil Servants
and Uncle Tom Cobley and all

Are you a good employer or have you completely fcuked up?????????????????
Or have you just forgot the techies???????????????

 

[Cake or Death]

OR
If you have to offer, or have even got to consider offering, a financial retention incentive to:

Aircrew
Flightcrew
Firemen
Gunners
movers
Admners
Civil Servants
and Uncle Tom Cobley and all

Are you a good employer or have you completely fcuked up?????????????????
Or have you just forgot the techies???????????????

ER forgotten the techies Hu!!! Get with it!

Every day on the goat i read about this trade has retention bonuses, and never is it a techie trade. Anyone care to give a reason why as the salt of the earth arent offered anything to keep the air farce flying, aircraft, ge, mt, etc wise?

 

[Realist78]

ER forgotten the techies Hu!!! Get with it!

Every day on the goat i read about this trade has retention bonuses, and never is it a techie trade. Anyone care to give a reason why as the salt of the earth arent offered anything to keep the air farce flying, aircraft, ge, mt, etc wise?

If I'm not mistaken, That's the very point Hu J is trying to make, given that he's a techie.DT_Xtremez_15:

 

[Man in Black]

Ok recruitment may not be the problem but what about retention of current staff? The only qualification you gain out of PABC is an NVQ 2 in Business Admin, which, to be fair, is pants. Should we not be promoting people to get involved with CIPD stuff??? Not everyone's cup of tea I know but for high calabre individuals accross the rank spectrum could make people think twice before banging out. Any Thoughts?

Not strictly true. During my time Instructing on SecTS (RAF SA as it is now) the learners all achieved the Business Administration Apprenticeship. The NVQ Level 2 was part of this qualification. Granted, it isn't as good as CIPD or IMA, but it is better than just a NVQ Level 2.

Recruitment was never a problem. Retaining the learners we sent out as LACs always was. Once they experienced the real world, a lot did PVR, as it wasn't what they wanted.

Personally I don't think a Financial Incentive is a good idea. Say they were offered an amount for 5 years return of Service, most would take the money, complete the time with minimal effort then leave anyway. We need to look at something more long term that would benefit the individual and the RAF.

 

[Shiney Pencil]

Not strictly true. During my time Instructing on SecTS (RAF SA as it is now) the learners all achieved the Business Administration Apprenticeship. The NVQ Level 2 was part of this qualification. Granted, it isn't as good as CIPD or IMA, but it is better than just a NVQ Level 2.

Recruitment was never a problem. Retaining the learners we sent out as LACs always was. Once they experienced the real world, a lot did PVR, as it wasn't what they wanted.

Personally I don't think a Financial Incentive is a good idea. Say they were offered an amount for 5 years return of Service, most would take the money, complete the time with minimal effort then leave anyway. We need to look at something more long term that would benefit the individual and the RAF.

Alright the Apprenticeship is ok, but what ideas are there for a long term incentive for retention. I actually like the RAF and the trade as a whole and have experienced a lot of good stuff, but when you are on the board with 6's and specs and missing out everyitme its becomes disheartening! Apart from doing an MSc to help me when I return to civvy street I also hope that it will aid me if I get promoted or decide to go for a commission.

 

[Rack Shelf Bin]

Whilst we do need to lose Sgt's, we also need to retain SAC's. FRI is one suggestion (eg Gunners, FFtrs) or even a strong case from Sec Sponsor to put Cpl's on higher pay band.


.......and before you say it'll never happen, think about the barrier operators!

Whilst I realise that the reduction of Admin peeps with no reduced work load has led to probs in TG17, my perseption is that this is the case for all trades. As one who is seen by most other trades as people who stack blankets (Duvets now!) or can't get the spares in time I also can see, from this side of the fence, a justification for being moved into the higher pay spine. This will not happen as the MOD are trying to save money so shelling out more on pay will not happen even if there is a problem with retaining people.

 

[Twisted]

Retention [and recruitment] is a key challenge for most HR practitioners as covered by McKinsey's 'War for Talent'. To be honest with you FRIs, in my experience, do not work. Staff come and staff go - that's life so why increase your financial cost for the risk of no/minimal return? One of the most effective ways to retain staff is to ensure that you have a mutually agreeable physchological contract in place, and therein lies the problem. You need to understand the mindset of the staff you are trying to keep [and this is an age old problem in every workplace, not just the RAF], in this case you are talking of junior administrators who were quite likely born post 1980 [aka the Millennials]. To that end, does the RAF meet the desires of these individuals, I suspect not, but to give you an idea:

As a line manager of a millennial do you:

Provide structure - Define work assignments and success factors;
Provide leadership & guidance - Millennials want to look up to you, learn from you and receive daily feedback from you. They deserve and want your very best investment in time of their success. They want to know the big picture but do you treat them like mushrooms?;
Encourage the millennial's 'can-do' attitude - encourage, don't squash or contain them;
Millennial's are up for challenge and change - They seek ever-changing tasks within their work. Don't bore them, ignore them or dismiss their contribution;
Provide a relaxed, employee-centred workplace - Millennials want to to enjoy their work and workplace.

Millennials whilst loyal will always keep their options open so, as intimated above, the reason that your junior administrators don't want to invest their time in the RAF is probably because their line managers are not investing the time in them.

DT_Xtremez_25:

 

[scaleywife]

As a line manager of a millennial do you:

Provide structure - Define work assignments and success factors;
Provide leadership & guidance - Millennials want to look up to you, learn from you and receive daily feedback from you. They deserve and want your very best investment in time of their success. They want to know the big picture but do you treat them like mushrooms?;
Encourage the millennial's 'can-do' attitude - encourage, don't squash or contain them;
Millennial's are up for challenge and change - They seek ever-changing tasks within their work. Don't bore them, ignore them or dismiss their contribution;
Provide a relaxed, employee-centred workplace - Millennials want to to enjoy their work and workplace.

Millennials whilst loyal will always keep their options open so, as intimated above, the reason that your junior administrators don't want to invest their time in the RAF is probably because their line managers are not investing the time in them.

Off topic - I think you have/are doing the same Open University Social Sciences degree as I am!!! LOL

TBH the problem is that the RAF is an anachronism in todays labour market. Mrs Thatcher gave us the 'freedom' of flexible working and here the RAF sits, a 'job for life' employer in aflexible world. The latest generation don't know how to commit to things as every thing is 'fast and easy'. Thats not a critisism btw, just a fact! It is a fact that the grass is greener mentality has been around since Pontious was a pilot, but it does appear to have got worse in the last 10 years. What incentive will there be to stay in any branch of the RAF whilst the economy is still bouyant.

To solve recruitment/retention problems, create an economic crash and mass unemployment.... you'll be beating them off with the preverbial stick and no-one will want to leave!!

EASY!!!!!!

 

[MrMasher]

Lets be honest about this subject.
Its not about financial reward is it?
The way I see it is RAF wide, not just shineys.
We are all struggling to get promoted on good assessments.
Why?
Because there is too much dead wood clogging the system up thats why.
Why did the techie redundancies get rid of loads of Cpls? (justification to promote sac (t)'s!!??)
They should have booted out some warrants, flights and chiefs to free the rank ladder up and I expect the other trades were in need of similar bootings!
Why do we insist on having people serving until 55 years of age??
I believe the Army sign for 22 years and if they want more service they can go for their commission? How about some of that action for us. Change the cut off age from 55 to 47. Get the dead wood gone!!!!!