SJAR Service Complaint?

[Ringo]

Not that I'm privvy to your personal emails, but I would imagine that the warning would have come from the latter of your comments, perhaps the last 4. And the persistent references to wasting everyone's time / your time / chief clerk's time... obviously this is only my perception, I have no idea why you got your knuckles rapped.

The same as for everyone, your opinions are your own and you are welcome to air them, but perhaps the Admins were suggesting that you share them in a less argumentative tone?

Giving your opinion in a direct and no nonsense manner....is argumentative ????

Get a grip yourselves......

Ive been around this forum long enough...to know that there are a number of different standards of behaviour depending on who you are......

I should have known better, than to say ANYTHING against a MOD, as they clearly operate on a different level

I stand by EVERYTHING I've written in this thread.

And I challenge anyone to pick me up on any info I gave the OP.
As for tone, and alleged argumentative nature....that is your opinion of my replies.
If I wanted an argument, I'd be very clear.

 

[FOMz]

Giving your opinion in a direct and no nonsense manner....is argumentative ????

Get a grip yourselves......

Ive been around this forum long enough...to know that there are a number of different standards of behaviour depending on who you are......

I should have known better, than to say ANYTHING against a MOD, as they clearly operate on a different level

I stand by EVERYTHING I've written in this thread.

And I challenge anyone to pick me up on any info I gave the OP.
As for tone, and alleged argumentative nature....that is your opinion of my replies.
If I wanted an argument, I'd be very clear.

You crack on mate... you are only saying what some of us think anyhow.

 

[Witty_Banter]

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers there sunshine, wasn't intentional.

Perhaps argumentative was not quite the right word, perhaps 'abrupt', or as you say, 'direct' would be more appropriate?

I, like you, am more than happy to stand my ground when I feel that the world is wrong and I'm right (because I usually am...), and I don't think there was anything wrong with the context of what you said, it was just how you said it. The OP was obviously a bit heartfelt, and whilst I don't approve of how 'precious' the younger element of the military is these days, I was just suggesting that a more tactful approach to your comments would have yielded a more positive outcome - basic debriefing skills 101. I can appreciate that some career paths don't have much in the way of requirements / involvement in that sort of thing, and it's easily recognisable in what has become our current FS/WO cadre.

I'm not suggesting for one minute that what you said is wrong, and I would expect you to stand by your comments (though I have no idea what you're implying by 'get a grip...'). I won't comment on the 'Mod' bit as I'm not one so I'm not involved.

 

[Trabelaine]

Anyway, to try and give a neutral reflection on the OP:

The OP states that he's now posted, and that his most recent SJAR is a High Rec. My first question would be, has the same RO written your last 3 SJARs?


If the write up and gradings don't match up, and it's your middle SJAR of a set of 3 that the board reads, then they would / should question it regardless (to jump from Rec to Dev to High Rec should raise questions). If he's gone from Dev to Dev to High Rec then I'd not worry about it anway.


Things like missing MPARs / Det reports just make the CoC look stupid - I'd be reading the President's Report for that particular board, to see what's been said.


Regardless the content, as the OP has already had another SJAR since the one in question was written, I'd say that there's little room for complaint - it's already history. Raising a complaint now would just put your head in the firing line. Given the events of the OP's life at the time, I would advise that he mark this one up as a life lesson learned the hard way - never take your eye off the ball - and don't have too much faith in your CoC, your line manager will always do what's best for you, so long as it doesn't get in the way of 'what the Unit wants' or their own requirements (by that I'm referring to command boards, etc, not personal vendettas).

Having now slept on it with some added advice, I can now make a sound decision on the matter, and this post now makes the most sense to me. Yes, I was wrong to have left so much trust in someone else on an element that's so vital to my own life. Lesson learnt now, so I'll move on.


When I posted I anticipated some posts to say 'man up', 'have a tissue for your issues' etc. but Christ, no need to let your own concerns with the service spill over into my post. I'm no 'disgruntled SAC' - I'm still fulfilling my job and won't be taking up people's time unnecessarily and I won't make a SC (because I posted here before making a SC, where replies are optional), and I won't cross paths with my last Sgt again as he's PVRed. However, I've still got my current 'hi-rec' SJAR which goes to the board next time, I'm studying for a degree over the next two years, have a happy family (and a resolution to the miscarriages soon I hope), and I now have a life lesson to add to my repertoire.

Thanks for the advice all.

 

[Witty_Banter]

Having now slept on it with some added advice, I can now make a sound decision on the matter, and this post now makes the most sense to me. Yes, I was wrong to have left so much trust in someone else on an element that's so vital to my own life. Lesson learnt now, so I'll move on.


When I posted I anticipated some posts to say 'man up', 'have a tissue for your issues' etc. but Christ, no need to let your own concerns with the service spill over into my post. I'm no 'disgruntled SAC' - I'm still fulfilling my job and won't be taking up people's time unnecessarily and I won't make a SC (because I posted here before making a SC, where replies are optional), and I won't cross paths with my last Sgt again as he's PVRed. However, I've still got my current 'hi-rec' SJAR which goes to the board next time, I'm studying for a degree over the next two years, have a happy family (and a resolution to the miscarriages soon I hope), and I now have a life lesson to add to my repertoire.

Thanks for the advice all.

Glad you've progressed mate. It's a painful lesson to learn (I learnt a similar lesson with regard to how words are used in SJARs, when I was a JT many moons ago - turns out what I thought was a cracking SJAR was mediocre at best, despite the recommendations, because of my SNECs poor linguistic skills). Helpful hint - when you get your next SJAR, have it read through by an Admin Officer BEFORE you sign for no comments, and question the meaning of everything. Read through the President's reports for the previous year's board, and check the comments against your write-up. And make sure there's written evidence to back up everything that your ROs have written.

 

[4everAD]

Glad you've progressed mate. It's a painful lesson to learn (I learnt a similar lesson with regard to how words are used in SJARs, when I was a JT many moons ago - turns out what I thought was a cracking SJAR was mediocre at best, despite the recommendations, because of my SNECs poor linguistic skills). Helpful hint - when you get your next SJAR, have it read through by an Admin Officer BEFORE you sign for no comments, and question the meaning of everything. Read through the President's reports for the previous year's board, and check the comments against your write-up. And make sure there's written evidence to back up everything that your ROs have written.

And this advice though correct sums up everything that is wrong with the current SJAR system; it relies on the RO's having a high standard of grammar and understanding the implications of the words they use. As you say what initially may sound like a great SJAR can be picked to pieces thee more you read it.

 

[metimmee]

Glad you've progressed mate. It's a painful lesson to learn (I learnt a similar lesson with regard to how words are used in SJARs, when I was a JT many moons ago - turns out what I thought was a cracking SJAR was mediocre at best, despite the recommendations, because of my SNECs poor linguistic skills). Helpful hint - when you get your next SJAR, have it read through by an Admin Officer BEFORE you sign for no comments, and question the meaning of everything. Read through the President's reports for the previous year's board, and check the comments against your write-up. And make sure there's written evidence to back up everything that your ROs have written.

Read through by an admin officer....for what exactly? Do you get yours reviewed by an admin officer?

SJAR workshops are available for all. If there are any clangers in the report, they should be apparent to anyone who's attended the briefs who have a decent grasp of the English language. Pre boarders aren't exclusively admin and they're the gate keepers to the board. In the case of the OP, dev means not only no promotion...but no acting rank....and to the delight of the pre boarder no need to read. ..In fact I may be correct in thinking that they don't get as far as the pre boarder as it's an immutable point that the subject isn't ready, I'm happy to be corrected on that point.

Two years ago I had a careers brief where the chief clerk and former pre boarder tore my 3 SJARs to shreds and coloured them in with red ink....an SJAR later and I'm promoted. So for the OP all isn't lost. It's not a formal warning or a NO, it's a dev that can be improved upon next time.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[Trabelaine]

In fact I may be correct in thinking that they don't get as far as the pre boarder as it's an immutable point that the subject isn't ready

You're absolutely right. I've already been over it with the Chief Clerk to confirm this, but it's something I wasn't aware of over a year ago when it was first presented to me. There were points he raised in the narrative but that was the killer. But anyway...something I know now.

 

[Puma]

I understand your frustration and whilst the advice here is technically correct, it's poor leadership to not have the balls to tell you what you're getting and in this case why. Were there any indications in your MPAR? Was it recorded?

I wonder though if it was the SNCO who really decided what you got or whether after a "discussion" with the 2nd RO it was changed.

Personally, I would politely ask him to justify it, you can't improve weak areas if you're not aware of them.

Hope your missus feels better.

 

[Trabelaine]

I understand your frustration and whilst the advice here is technically correct, it's poor leadership to not have the balls to tell you what you're getting and in this case why. Were there any indications in your MPAR? Was it recorded?

I wonder though if it was the SNCO who really decided what you got or whether after a "discussion" with the 2nd RO it was changed.

Personally, I would politely ask him to justify it, you can't improve weak areas if you're not aware of them.

Hope your missus feels better.

In my original post (understandably missable in the bulk of it) I mentioned I'd contacted him first with an email which was read but given no response.
Then when I went to the Chief Clerk, who rang him, he had no recollection of it.
Next I messaged him myself through Facebook to ask 'Why did you mark me as Dev and not tell me?' (literally my words...very restrained) and at last I received a generalised formal email explaining what he would have done (though without specifics, and forgetting it was mostly over the phone and a few emails) and that I could go to P1 if I felt wronged. At this point I don't want any more contact with him (blocked on FB), posted away, and he's PVRed anyway.

My MPAR was given whilst I was away on det (phone & email again). And 2 points I took from it were that I should use my experience to make continous improvement changes in work (thus £100,000 saving) and get more involved with station events, so I joined the Junior Ranks Welfare Fund Committee. I doubt I'll have a copy as it was given on det.

I think I've explained this now to my extent, and I really just want to move on from it.

 

[Witty_Banter]

Read through by an admin officer....for what exactly? Do you get yours reviewed by an admin officer?

Er, no.

In the Int world, we have to put up with Pongo chain of command and how they do things. On more than one of my previous SJARs, that all-important final check was conducted by a LCpl Adminner, and on another occasion by a civvy. A Sgt sitting as the Chief Clerk / Unit Admin WO is not uncommon either, particularly with current manpower issues.

Oh, and Army command boards, where the CO, RSM and SSM dictate who will get the best writeups about 6 months before they're even written, and dictate how many SJARs can be written at Dev, how many at Rec, etc, and only 2% are ever allowed to be good enough to require a 3RO, because that's the CO and he doesn't have time for that sh!t in his day...

But the worst, is p!ss-weak management who bend over backwards to kiss the CO's ar$e, and do whatever it takes to get themself ahead - even to the detriment of their section / manpower / section morale.

We all talk about how different the RAF is now compared how it used to be, but the simple truth is that the RAF is very different for some trades to how it is for others. In a joint environment, the RAF are just Pongos in blue suits.

 

[Witty_Banter]

I wonder though if it was the SNCO who really decided what you got or whether after a "discussion" with the 2nd RO it was changed.

You'd like to think your 1RO and 2RO had discussed your performance and what they were going to write BEFORE they wrote your SJAR...

Like has been said, a good MPAR should highlight any problems so they can be ironed out. 1RO / 2RO are certainly not innocent in all this.

 

[TG3 TILL I DIE!!!!]

Interesting!...SNCO does the dirty on you (and how many others? Maybe) and then PVR's. Yet there is so much ****e spouted on this post about the calibre of Snecs in the RAF today! Like to know what trade you are Trabelaine?

 

[muttywhitedog]

Er, no.

Oh, and Army command boards, where the CO, RSM and SSM dictate who will get the best writeups about 6 months before they're even written, and dictate how many SJARs can be written at Dev, how many at Rec, etc, and only 2% are ever allowed to be good enough to require a 3RO, because that's the CO and he doesn't have time for that sh!t in his day...

Is grading a bad thing?

My last Wg Cdr had a similar policy for 3ROs - he wanted to only be endorsing the very best of each rank and trade, and almost every 3RO narrative he wrote started with "Sgt/Cpl/SAC XXX is the best of his/her rank and trade which covers YY personnel". He came to us having done two tours as a Desk Officer (at Sqn Ldr & Wg Cdr) and was adamant that a 3RO stating that someone was the best SAC across the 100 in his Wing was a shoe-in for promotion. As far as I can recall, in his 2 years in command, every single one of the personnel he wrote on got promoted.

As for not having time, this guy made time. He insisted his Sqn Cdrs briefed him on their top performers, and made them visible when he was visiting their AOR, so that he was writing about someone he had met & witnessed in action.

 

[Witty_Banter]

Is grading a bad thing?

My last Wg Cdr had a similar policy for 3ROs - he wanted to only be endorsing the very best of each rank and trade, and almost every 3RO narrative he wrote started with "Sgt/Cpl/SAC XXX is the best of his/her rank and trade which covers YY personnel". He came to us having done two tours as a Desk Officer (at Sqn Ldr & Wg Cdr) and was adamant that a 3RO stating that someone was the best SAC across the 100 in his Wing was a shoe-in for promotion. As far as I can recall, in his 2 years in command, every single one of the personnel he wrote on got promoted.

As for not having time, this guy made time. He insisted his Sqn Cdrs briefed him on their top performers, and made them visible when he was visiting their AOR, so that he was writing about someone he had met & witnessed in action.

There's nothing wrong with stating that only the best should be reviewed at 3RO level, and I agree with the method of placing people in order or merit, but what I'm talking about is dictating HOW MANY people are ALLOWED to be written up to 3RO review, regardless of performance..

For example, dictating that out of 100 SACs, only 2% across the entire Unit are allowed 3RO review - that would mean that only 2 SACs across the various sections were allowed to be written up to that level, even if 10 or more deserved it.

 

[Gonterseed]

There's nothing wrong with stating that only the best should be reviewed at 3RO level, and I agree with the method of placing people in order or merit, but what I'm talking about is dictating HOW MANY people are ALLOWED to be written up to 3RO review, regardless of performance..

For example, dictating that out of 100 SACs, only 2% across the entire Unit are allowed 3RO review - that would mean that only 2 SACs across the various sections were allowed to be written up to that level, even if 10 or more deserved it.

Obviously it will never apply to me (no longer in and all that) but if filters are going to be applied at a unit level then how will that pan out when it gets to the promotion board? Just because the best "deserve" a 3RO write-up at one unit doesn't mean that they would be better for promotion than those from another unit who's 3RO couldn't be @rsed.

Only asking...

 

[busby1971]

Obviously it will never apply to me (no longer in and all that) but if filters are going to be applied at a unit level then how will that pan out when it gets to the promotion board? Just because the best "deserve" a 3RO write-up at one unit doesn't mean that they would be better for promotion than those from another unit who's 3RO couldn't be @rsed.

Only asking...

Army have done this for years, unlikely to be challenged by weak RAF management, I could only get a high rec one year because someone had already been allocated the Spec.

My management challenged it and we're told they could wrote what they wanted, however, the 3rd RO part would have made me a very weak Spec rather than the very strong Hi.

You need to know what battles to fight in life and this just want one of them.

 

[muttywhitedog]

Army have done this for years, unlikely to be challenged by weak RAF management, I could only get a high rec one year because someone had already been allocated the Spec.

My management challenged it and we're told they could wrote what they wanted, however, the 3rd RO part would have made me a very weak Spec rather than the very strong Hi.

Exactly. A 3RO narrative saying "he is in the top 4 of my 10 Sgts" says that he is 4th best and "promote 3 others from my unit alone before him". In those scenarios, a strongly worded High Rec would be worth far more weight.

I believed 3RO narratives were used to tell a pre boarder that this person is the best out of a large quota across a wing and should be an A Grade. After that, the PSB will be able to determine who is the best across the whole rank and trade.

 

[Pension Trapped]

SJAR Workshop and Recommendations

SJAR Workshop and Recommendations

If the recommendation is positive (yes/high/excp) and the subject has seniority, the subject WILL be pre-boarded (unless it's an A's & C's board) thus the difference between high/excp is only relevant for those subjects without seniority for 'fast-tracking' to the PRE-board only. A negative rec (Dev/No) strikes you from the pre-board. There endeth the importance of the recommendation. Evidence in narrative is all that matters from that point on.

I have been delivering workshops for years and can honestly say to everyone from LAC-MRAF - DO IT, do one every year! Your SJAR is just that - YOURS, your responsibility (I'm not saying yours alone - get advice) and your promotion (Not that it matters after NEM anyway) - take ownership for it.

A word to the wise, the JSP clearly states who does what in terms of SJAR - clerks/handbrake house DO NOT read them anymore -be careful.