TG17 OOA Dets

[KingGuin]

I am on OOA no 5 in 23 years; I expect to deploy on no 6 sometime towards the end of next year. I get paid to do it so I'll go without complaint. I volunteered for 4, got 3 and somewhere in between was sent to MPA "because I hadn't been there". My current det may be classed, in comparison with the others, as "cushy". I got it not because of who I am or where I work but because I was willing to deploy at very short notice. No I am not a drafter.

But I have been a drafter and I know the DWR process, no matter how it may seem to an onlooker, is fair, equitable and justifiable: how individuals use that process to their own advantage may not appear to be so. However unless every one of us if aware of the full facts of each case then we are only qualified to speculate.

Having said that no matter where I have been I have always perceived others to be both better and worse off and IMHO it will always be like that.

 

[tommo9999]

In answer to vinny's other point about drafters going OOA I can state that they were certainly sent to all points of the compass when I was on the desk. Without naming names (Persec reasons) I can think of at least 8 that went to either Iraq (Shaibah/Basrah/Baghdad), Afghanistan (Kandahar/Kabul), and other places that vinny considers to be more onerous than others. I used to accept volunteers for specific OOA locations if they were asking to deploy out of turn (At least 12 months earlier than their due date) from anyone, not just drafters. That said, the position was that you had to go to the Falklands if you'd not been before, although I believe the desk no longer operate that system due to the numbers of posts that need to be filled elsewhere. I have to say that these sort of unsubstantiated, rumour-based allegations is one of the things I do not miss about drafting. Equally, as I've said on other threads, if you want to try your hand at drafting, volunteer for the job. If you're not prepared to do that, then you really should not be accusing anyone of acts of underhandedness without either the facts or the knowledge base to speak with authority.

 

[Triple SA]

Tg17 Ooa Dets & Drafters

Tg17 Ooa Dets & Drafters

I think part of the problem with regard to rumour control & Drafter OOAs is that people tend to remember the ones that get good US type OOAs (2 of Tommo's fellow TG17 'drafting shineys' spring to mind - though I might have been misinformed), and not those who get sent elsewhere and get asked 'who did you upset'. But 'comfortable' OOAs, though few and far between, are there to be applied for.

As the old saying goes '... you sh@g one sheep...'

 

[tommo9999]

....... But 'comfortable' OOAs, though few and far between, are there to be applied for.

As the old saying goes '... you sh@g one sheep...'

And anyone can apply if they so choose. Regarding the USA posts, one guy went to a DV cleared post for 6 months at 4 weeks notice having already completed 3 dets to MPA, and other OOA dets. The other guy (PTI drafter) went to a post that was brought on at very short notice because a STC Flying Unit said they could no longer administratively support their Sqn on deployment!!

 

[MrMasher]

If the're medically downgraded, then give them the medical boot with a medical pension and a chance to get on with their lives where medical reasons will not put a burdon on their colleagues, fair dinkum I think.

I felt I had to chuck in my two pennerth worth here also!
I think people are somewhat harsh on the downgraded.
I am downgraded, all I want is to get mended and upgraded. Unfortunately the NHS dont see this view and I have to wait, wait and wait. Because of this I have been temporarily downgraded for 12 months and have just been extended by another 6 months whilst I await 3 months to get an appointment for my next batch of treatment.
I am not a glass back and I think that too many people are grouping the sicknotes in with the really downgraded people most of whom do as much as possible with whatever ailment they have.
Before my downgrading I went out of area and I am actually looking forwards to being fixed so I can go do another OOA. Where it is doesnt matter as long as I get the experience. You cant do it when you're a civvie!!

As for the drafters being exempt/screened. Well thats a fine idea. I only got my tapes after I questioned PMA as to why I wasnt read as an A candidate. Turns out my drafter had gone out of area and somewhere along the line I was missed out. As a result of this I had to wait until he returned and then he and other board members reconvened and sat another promotion board. Subsequentially I got picked up and promoted. I then had to wait for a post and eventually lost out by 6 or 7 months worth of pay and seniority which potentially has meant I have just missed this last promotion board by a month as an A candidate.

Let them be screened!!!!

 

[busby1971]

I think people are somewhat harsh on the downgraded.
I am downgraded, all I want is to get mended and upgraded. Unfortunately the NHS dont see this view and I have to wait, wait and wait. Because of this I have been temporarily downgraded for 12 months and have just been extended by another 6 months whilst I await 3 months to get an appointment for my next batch of treatment.
I am not a glass back and I think that too many people are grouping the sicknotes in with the really downgraded people most of whom do as much as possible with whatever ailment they have.
Before my downgrading I went out of area and I am actually looking forwards to being fixed so I can go do another OOA. Where it is doesnt matter as long as I get the experience. You cant do it when you're a civvie!!

Sorry didn't mean to tar all with the same brush, but there are people out there who don't seem to get fixed and push the burdon on others, in the past I've had a biff chit and worked my socks off with the physio so that I could get signed up for a planned OOA, made it with a couple of days to spare and really enjoyed myself, I think this is taking the whole thing off topic which seems to have become a bash Tommo thread.

Back on track I'm sure that Drafters take their fair share of bad OOAs as much as the rest of us, but it just seems they always seem to take more than their fair share of the nicer ones, When I spent some time on a Sqn every time I went to Italy or Incirlik the NFU cashier was from Innsworth (mostly PMA but once even a guy from the AFPAA side), and this wasn't just one or two visits but seven or eight.

 

[KingGuin]

Back on track I'm sure that Drafters take their fair share of bad OOAs as much as the rest of us, but it just seems they always seem to take more than their fair share of the nicer ones, When I spent some time on a Sqn every time I went to Italy or Incirlik the NFU cashier was from Innsworth (mostly PMA but once even a guy from the AFPAA side), and this wasn't just one or two visits but seven or eight.

Busby FYI A1 Ops (or whatever name they go by since I last looked) publish and promulgate to Chf Clks on a regular basis, requests for volunteers to undertake such detachments. If none are forthcoming then CMLO tasks units to provide. It is hardly surprising that given the percentage of TG17 personnel at Innsworth/PMA (somewhere between 40-50% of SNCO strength) that more often than you will encounter their ilk on an OOA.

As an aside surely your Sqn Admin could have cashiered?

 

[vinnyvx]

In answer to vinny's other point about drafters going OOA I can state that they were certainly sent to all points of the compass when I was on the desk. Without naming names (Persec reasons) I can think of at least 8 that went to either Iraq (Shaibah/Basrah/Baghdad), Afghanistan (Kandahar/Kabul), and other places that vinny considers to be more onerous than others. I used to accept volunteers for specific OOA locations if they were asking to deploy out of turn (At least 12 months earlier than their due date) from anyone, not just drafters. That said, the position was that you had to go to the Falklands if you'd not been before, although I believe the desk no longer operate that system due to the numbers of posts that need to be filled elsewhere. I have to say that these sort of unsubstantiated, rumour-based allegations is one of the things I do not miss about drafting. Equally, as I've said on other threads, if you want to try your hand at drafting, volunteer for the job. If you're not prepared to do that, then you really should not be accusing anyone of acts of underhandedness without either the facts or the knowledge base to speak with authority.

Tommo,
E-Goat's strap line is "E-Goat the Unofficial RAF Rumour Network". My first post on this thread clearly points out at word 15 that these are rumours, not fact. My source seemed impeccable (ex drafter) and I had no reason to question what was said, especially as it tallied with other sources. Much as I have no reason to question what you have said.

Vinnyvx

On the other points that have been raised. I was virtually the last man out of N. Luff, so I'm very much aware of how much work is entailed in closing a station, No one at N Luff had a DWR exemption, i'm not bitter about it, it's a fact. I also understand that no one else at Innsworth has a blanket DWR exemption, except the drafters.

I wonder if people will be so sanguine when the EVFs are raised to disestablish 133 Pers Admin posts as a result of the 10% JPA stretch target, especially as it's likely a lot will be Sgts posts. How about a nice 18-24 or 12-18 DWR TRT for Sgts. Will you still be happy that the very people who send you OOA away aren't going?

 

[True Blue Jack]

I wonder if people will be so sanguine when the EVFs are raised to disestablish 133 Pers Admin posts as a result of the 10% JPA stretch target, especially as it's likely a lot will be Sgts posts. How about a nice 18-24 or 12-18 DWR TRT for Sgts. Will you still be happy that the very people who send you OOA away aren't going?

Just so I fully understand: is this rumour or fact? DT_Xtremez_28:

 

[vinnyvx]

Just so I fully understand: is this rumour or fact? DT_Xtremez_28:

The 10% JPA stretch target is fact in the public domain as is the TG17 DWR TRT. Look at the TG pyramid and you'll by able to work out how many Sgts posts are likely to go. You can the deduce the impact on DWT TRT. It's a little rough, but good enough for a public forum.

 

[vinnyvx]

Equally, as I've said on other threads, if you want to try your hand at drafting, volunteer for the job. If you're not prepared to do that, then you really should not be accusing anyone of acts of underhandedness without either the facts or the knowledge base to speak with authority.

3 former drafters have recounted stories of underhand/dodgy practices whilst at PMA. There's no smoke without fire.

That said, the position was that you had to go to the Falklands if you'd not been before, although I believe the desk no longer operate that system due to the numbers of posts that need to be filled elsewhere. .

I may have only done 4 PSF and 1 Pers Policy tour however I don't remember reading that in Vol 2, ASPIs or STC PSIs.

 

[True Blue Jack]

I may have only done 4 PSF and 1 Pers Policy tour however I don't remember reading that in Vol 2, ASPIs or STC PSIs.

I was told by the then TG17 Cpl drafter 4 years ago that I would be going to the Falklands because my previous OOA was Saudi. The rationale at the time - as I understood it - was that so many shineys were applying to go to, e.g., Turkey, to get out of the Falklands. Now of course people (across all trade groups) are applying for the Falklands to get out of Iraq/Afghanistan. It's a funny old world.

 

[tommo9999]

I may have only done 4 PSF and 1 Pers Policy tour however I don't remember reading that in Vol 2, ASPIs or STC PSIs.

You would not read it any of the publications you have listed because it was a case of the TG17 desk thinking on their feet and trying to develop a fairer way of ensuring pers undertook a fair proportion of what was then one of the poorer dets (FI). This has recently changed, due to the small number of posts down here compared to other theatres (It is simply not possible to get everyone to the FI that has not been here before). And as I said earlier, pers were free to vol for OOA's providing they went Out of Turn. You won't find that in ASPSI's either, but it was felt this was a fair way of dealing with the situation.

If you want drafters to follow the exact wording of each publication fine. If however, you want your drafter to be able to come up with innovative solutions to drafting issues without disadvantaging anyone, within the spirit of the regulations then leave them to it. Believe me, the second option is infinitely more suitable than the first.

 

[vinnyvx]

You would not read it any of the publications you have listed because it was a case of the TG17 desk thinking on their feet and trying to develop a fairer way of ensuring pers undertook a fair proportion of what was then one of the poorer dets (FI). This has recently changed, due to the small number of posts down here compared to other theatres (It is simply not possible to get everyone to the FI that has not been here before). And as I said earlier, pers were free to vol for OOA's providing they went Out of Turn. You won't find that in ASPSI's either, but it was felt this was a fair way of dealing with the situation.

If you want drafters to follow the exact wording of each publication fine. If however, you want your drafter to be able to come up with innovative solutions to drafting issues without disadvantaging anyone, within the spirit of the regulations then leave them to it. Believe me, the second option is infinitely more suitable than the first.

Tommo,
We've been in AFG since Nov 01 and the buildup for Iraq started in 02. The FI hasn't been a poor det since the late 80s. Do you get mortared in the FI? No, end of.

 

[Kernow]

Tommo,
We've been in AFG since Nov 01 and the buildup for Iraq started in 02. The FI hasn't been a poor det since the late 80s. Do you get mortared in the FI? No, end of.

Vinny are you looking out for the general TG17 populace or do you have a personal axe to grind?

 

[tommo9999]

Tommo,
We've been in AFG since Nov 01 and the buildup for Iraq started in 02. The FI hasn't been a poor det since the late 80s. Do you get mortared in the FI? No, end of.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. However, we did what we thought was fair and equitable to all. Iraq hasn't always been as crap as it is now, and opinions vary about Kandahar. You're correct to say that we don't get mortared in the FI, but that cannot be the sole basis of your argument. Can it?

In sum, there will always be different opinions on the qualities of different det locations. We operated a system that we believed to be fair.

 

[busby1971]

Busby FYI A1 Ops (or whatever name they go by since I last looked) publish and promulgate to Chf Clks on a regular basis, requests for volunteers to undertake such detachments. If none are forthcoming then CMLO tasks units to provide. It is hardly surprising that given the percentage of TG17 personnel at Innsworth/PMA (somewhere between 40-50% of SNCO strength) that more often than you will encounter their ilk on an OOA.

As an aside surely your Sqn Admin could have cashiered?

Could have done but these were Operational Deployments and the NFU staff were DWR'd, not the nice short detachments to far away places that I know get a much wider publicity and a much wider participation. These were the dets where you tended to be better off at the end of a four month period. If your % is correct I should have least bumped into 4 or 5 non PMA bods, nope not once.

 

[muttywhitedog]

You would not read it any of the publications you have listed because it was a case of the TG17 desk thinking on their feet and trying to develop a fairer way of ensuring pers undertook a fair proportion of what was then one of the poorer dets (FI). This has recently changed, due to the small number of posts down here compared to other theatres (It is simply not possible to get everyone to the FI that has not been here before). And as I said earlier, pers were free to vol for OOA's providing they went Out of Turn. You won't find that in ASPSI's either, but it was felt this was a fair way of dealing with the situation.

If you want drafters to follow the exact wording of each publication fine. If however, you want your drafter to be able to come up with innovative solutions to drafting issues without disadvantaging anyone, within the spirit of the regulations then leave them to it. Believe me, the second option is infinitely more suitable than the first.

I'd just like to corroberate 100% what Tommo says above. I wanted to go OOA out of turn due to my unit closing and I didnt want to pitch up somewhere new only to have a DWR hanging over me. He asked me if I wanted to go to the FI (I had already been). I didn't. He asked me where I wanted to go (as I was a volunteer). I said Bosnia. He sorted it.

As I see it, if an individual is willing to undertake DWRs out of turn, they should be afforded some kind of respect and favourable treatment. After all, they are putting their own lives on hold so that their peers may enjoy theirs.

Do VIP posts attract OOA? If not, maybe they should.

 

[Boarderlyne]

Talking of OOAs. Just found out that I am going on the Deployable Admin Course at Southwick. The bit that concerns me is that no-one at my Unit knew of this and that it has only been 17 months since I got back from my last OOA! A bit worrying is that.

 

[busby1971]

Talking of OOAs. Just found out that I am going on the Deployable Admin Course at Southwick. The bit that concerns me is that no-one at my Unit knew of this and that it has only been 17 months since I got back from my last OOA! A bit worrying is that.

I always thought this course was valid for 3 years.

As another thought if you were working in PMA and a short notice fall down came in of course you'd ask your colleagues (other drafters) if anybody was up for it and I'm sure if it was a nice area then somebody might well be up for it, if not just bring the standby forward.

Of course I'm not saying that this actually happened, I'm just making an assumption, and to be honest if I was in the same boat I'd be doing just the same, all jobs have good sides and bad sides and as long as people go away more often than they would otherwise I don't see it as being to much of a problem.

If you want to go somewhere nice then go on, as Thomo said, be proactive volunteer early and get there, this is what I've done in the past, if you don't or feel that you're owed a nice det then just sit there until your turn comes around again, just stop moaning about it.