Training cell workload to get worse

[Odie]

I can confirm that the line bit is being chopped to 15 days, not sure how much is being removed from the rest of the course though. Needless to say the farcical development, god squad and Ped won't be touched or reduced though.

The original post would have us believe that the whole course would be 15 days long, DT_Xtremez_17: the truth isn't quite as bad. Since the AMMs main employment is on the line, the practical line phase should be as long as possible to give them confidence to work safely round aircraft. To that end, bin the God bothering - if they have firmly held religious beliefs the little visits to the God Squad will make no difference.

 

[8:15fromOdium]

Odie, we can't bin the god bothering, that's all we have left. The issue of holy water to conduct see offs and St Christophers for cockpits can't be far behind. We really are operating on a wing and a prayer.

Just as the Aircraft industry and the USAF are realising the mistakes they made in leaning aircraft engineering we seem hell bent (that's enough religious metaphors - ed) on emulating and surpassing them.

May God go with you on the line because the Eng Sponsor certainly isn't.

 

[Hu Jardon]

then it's more room for our arab friends.... DCAE does stand for Defence College of Arab Engineering....::/:
*walks away before getting too cynical*

You're about right there - I've just been to clothing stores and they've got Saudi Air Force Shirts in stock - no jokeDT_Xtremez_42:

 

[enginesuck]

To be fair on my mechs course in 97 i can remember the LTF phase being about two weeks long please correct me if im wrong but the training was a lead up to the last couple of days where the jet would be towed out of the hanger (pushed)! a BF performed. A see off / see in an af then put the jets to bed. All done following a copy of the 5B1. It wasnt rocket science to be fair and all you had to do was make sure you were safe in all aspects of the a/c handling. Do we really need more than two weeks to accomplish that ?? Everybody knows you learn your trade on the squadrons and thats why we have training cells, i cant speak for the rest of the RAF but here at kinloss the CSM (composite servicing mechanic) course is four weeks log and the school watch over the young un's Like hawks.

 

[Ghandi's Flip-Flop]

I think it was nearer three weeks as mine split over the festive period in '97/98 but then again on the whole we seemed a little bit more switched on than the kids coming through now. I will concede I was still very wet behind the ears tho.

 

[Tashy_Man]

I think it was nearer three weeks as mine split over the festive period in '97/98 but then again on the whole we seemed a little bit more switched on than the kids coming through now. I will concede I was still very wet behind the ears tho.

and some would say you still are..........DT_Xtremez_15:

Sorry but you walked into that one......

Crack on.................DT_Xtremez_09:

 

[Tin basher]

And to put that into perspective, the AMM course started at 26 weeks!!DT_Xtremez_42:

So true GSH. Does anyone know how long the whole course is now? Not 26 weeks I guess.

 

[BogCatchTechnition]

I Went through the old airfield training stage in the mid eighties and even then it was only 1 or 2 weeks,

Marshalling a pushbike followed by a JP. a couple of bottle charges, see in, see off, Lox charge etc.

We were all taught the stuff before hand and I seem to remember it was a very relaxed part of the course. The final phase before the final exam.

2 weeks was in my opinion enough time to give us a general feel for the job.



The recruits back then generally had very few if any qualifications and the whole rigger course was only 5 months, which of course included the airfield / general handle phase.

The guys today are just the same as they were then ! apart from the haircuts.
no better no worse.

There was Q courses but no training cells back then, you learned what you had to learn from the other lads on the line. In my opinion the best and only way to learn.

 

[MontyPlumbs]

I Went through the old airfield training stage in the mid eighties and even then it was only 1 or 2 weeks,

Marshalling a pushbike followed by a JP. a couple of bottle charges, see in, see off, Lox charge etc.

We were all taught the stuff before hand and I seem to remember it was a very relaxed part of the course. The final phase before the final exam.

2 weeks was in my opinion enough time to give us a general feel for the job.



The recruits back then generally had very few if any qualifications and the whole rigger course was only 5 months, which of course included the airfield / general handle phase.

The guys today are just the same as they were then ! apart from the haircuts.
no better no worse.

There was Q courses but no training cells back then, you learned what you had to learn from the other lads on the line. In my opinion the best and only way to learn.

Unfortunately mate, they are now taking advantage of this "mentoring" to cover up for the fact people are not up the required standard upon leaving Phase 2 training. The distinction between an SAC Mentor and an underpaid SAC instructor seems to be getting more blurred every day.

 

[BogCatchTechnition]

What standard is required ? or what standard do you want them to be at ?

As long as they know not to touch anything they dont understand, followed by doing as there told, they are probably at the same standard as when I arrived on my first unit.

Too much info stuffed down there throat in a classroom or a false environment like the Halton / Tossford airfield can have a negitive effect. Get them out of training asap and get them out in to the thick of it.

They have never and will never pass out of training fully qualified to do anything.
They need proper training by the blokes that do the job stop bleating about it and get on with it.
Its a sad day when an liney no matter what rank, expects more cash to show someone less experienced how to do a job.

 

[MontyPlumbs]

What standard is required ? or what standard do you want them to be at ?

As long as they know not to touch anything they dont understand, followed by doing as there told, they are probably at the same standard as when I arrived on my first unit.

Too much info stuffed down there throat in a classroom or a false environment like the Halton / Tossford airfield can have a negitive effect. Get them out of training asap and get them out in to the thick of it.

They have never and will never pass out of training fully qualified to do anything.
They need proper training by the blokes that do the job stop bleating about it and get on with it.
Its a sad day when an liney no matter what rank, expects more cash to show someone less experienced how to do a job.

I actually find your comments quite distasteful. I was in no way insinuating that AMMs should come out of Cosford fully qualified, that is what Q courses and OJT are for. HOWEVER, coming out of training with basic knowledge and a positive attitude should be a given.

On the JFH OCU we are basically a sausage factory for the whole of JFH, in my three (nearly four) years on the squadron I reckon we've had around 1500 people through, so don't preach to me about I should stop bleating and get on with it. We train guys up, two weeks later they've gone and we get a new batch. It's never ending and goes WAY beyond basic mentoring of a "new lad". It's not mentoring when you have to fill gaps in peoples basic knowledge, it's instructing.

Specific examples I am talking about:

1) Not knowing about basic tools, such as the difference between a torque wrench and a speed brace.

2) An awareness of basic aircraft husbandry, mopping up spills, earthing your jet, storing POL correctly etc

3) Having a problem with an SAC or JT mentor and then coming up with the line "you can't tell me what to do I'm the same rank as you".

4) Little or no FOD awareness. Some (not all) sometimes aren't even listening whilst a "mentor" is showing/teaching them something.

The list goes on, it's not going to be long before someone is seriously injured or killed, but hey, don't worry I'll just sit here and "bleat" about not getting more cash.

 

[BogCatchTechnition]

Think I've touched a nerve there let me explain. If someone gets injured or killed it means that the person to blame should never have been near the A/C in the first place, dont new blokes still have 100% supervision, what was the supervisor doing??

So will some extra cash in your pocket solve these problems ?

Have you approached the course sponser with specific failings that you are aware of.

Here would be my answers to your problems (old school transport fleet way)

1) Send him for a rag spanner, long weight etc until he learns the difference through embarasment.

2) New blokes clean the drip trays, fetch the POL and carry out the weekly check on the earth leads until the next new bloke arrives.

3) This only comes with respect, if the guy teaching or learning is a cnut the Cpl's and Snec's will soon pick up on it and i'm sure retraining will be carried out, see answer 2.

4) FOD plod on a Sunday Morn, everyone from the Chf down carries this out, again if he's leaving crap lying about this will be picked up very quickly by other lineys and if the Squadrons worth its salt he will be suitable retrained. It has been known for solo fod plods of the pan to be carried out.

There have always been good and bad coming out of training. Its what you do with them after training that counts.

 

[MontyPlumbs]

Think I've touched a nerve there let me explain. If someone gets injured or killed it means that the person to blame should never have been near the A/C in the first place, dont new blokes still have 100% supervision, what was the supervisor doing??

So will some extra cash in your pocket solve these problems ?

Have you approached the course sponser with specific failings that you are aware of.

Here would be my answers to your problems (old school transport fleet way)

1) Send him for a rag spanner, long weight etc until he learns the difference through embarasment.

2) New blokes clean the drip trays, fetch the POL and carry out the weekly check on the earth leads until the next new bloke arrives.

3) This only comes with respect, if the guy teaching or learning is a cnut the Cpl's and Snec's will soon pick up on it and i'm sure retraining will be carried out, see answer 2.

4) FOD plod on a Sunday Morn, everyone from the Chf down carries this out, again if he's leaving crap lying about this will be picked up very quickly by other lineys and if the Squadrons worth its salt he will be suitable retrained. It has been known for solo fod plods of the pan to be carried out.

There have always been good and bad coming out of training. Its what you do with them after training that counts.

I agree with your sentiments, but the way the RAF is at the moment does not allow for these "old skool" methods. I generally (though not in all cases) don't blame the individuals, both they and the instructors that teach them have been let down by the system the RAF has adopted.

You say send the guy for a rag spanner etc but what does this actually achieve? Especially when your rank as an SAC(T) carries about as much authority as ILLBW talking about air power. He might just tell you to get fcuked!

We have so many "new blokes" coming through in my opinion they are let loose on the aircraft way too early, sometimes your most experienced "liney" may only have been doing the job 6 months. It's not a problem if they are working with someone who knows what they are doing, but a lot of the time they are not.

I agree again with your sentiments regarding supervision, but yet again many of our supervisors are no more experienced either on type or in rank than the guys they are supervising, it all comes down to numbers. If a majority of guys you have are inexperienced what can you do? The experienced guys are needed on rects just so we can generate frames!

We don't even have any SAC(T) or JTs on the line anymore, they are desperately needed on rects, so the line is left to the AMMs and AETs, thus the recurring problem.

I think you missed the point of my earlier post as well. I don't care much for the extra few pennies a day, but a JNCO has the authority (supposedly) to put these trainees in their place should they step out of line, an SAC(T) or JT does not.

 

[Dave-exfairy]

I take it from the previous comments that lineys who have been in for 5/6 years and more in some cases and "daddy" lineys no longer exist then?
I was on a FJ sqn from 92 to 96 and woe betide you if you did step out of line, you got told when you left training and when you arrived at the sqn, "You know sod all, you've got 2 eyes and ears and only one mouth, you look and listen twice as much as you talk".
I noticed a definate change in the LAC's coming out of training around 97 onwards, they seemed more gobby and less inclined to listen.

 

[Downsizer]

I noticed a definate change in the LAC's coming out of training around 97 onwards, they seemed more gobby and less inclined to listen.

Won't be long till you get a bite with that hook. Let's see if it's the usual suspects....

 

[Sospan]

Won't be long till you get a bite with that hook. Let's see if it's the usual suspects....

I am tempted ! Just another unjustified knock at the generation below....

Things move on Dave DT_Xtremez_25:

 

[Dave-exfairy]

I am tempted ! Just another unjustified knock at the generation below....

Things move on Dave DT_Xtremez_25:

They do indeed, but it was just my impression and now I see that the guys who joined up around that time are moaning about the guys joining up now. And so the wheel moves on.

 

[Sospan]

They do indeed, but it was just my impression and now I see that the guys who joined up around that time are moaning about the guys joining up now. And so the wheel moves on.

Yep and that will never change, there is also the 'blame the parents' adage, if the NCO's let them get away with this attitude nothing will change.

 

[Dave-exfairy]

Yep and that will never change, there is also the 'blame the parents' adage, if the NCO's let them get away with this attitude nothing will change.

But that's where we had it made, the NCO's didn't let them get away with it. And the daddy lineys!

 

[DrunkenMonki]

There arn't enough NCO's left around to be there all the time Dave, also, pull any of the Daddy Liney stuff you are on about nowadays, you'll end up with a court martial. Kids nowadays know their rights, theres no physical threat you can use, its down to pure respect.

If an NCO fails to gain that through his experience, quite often the only way left is the 'be my mate' approach. Simply telling someone to do something may work, but can you guarantee the quality of the result? Things arn't as easy as you seem to believe, I'm a JNCO fairy myself, we've been disempowered to a point you'd find hard to believe.