Training cell workload to get worse

[Sospan]

Now, can anyone guess why this subject has been put back in again?

Would that be a certain Tornado that met a watery death in the humber ?

 

[propersplitbrainme]

Would that be a certain Tornado that met a watery death in the humber ?

Think bigger and older mate.
More crew and quite a bit further away than the Humber :S

 

[Sospan]

The problem is Sos that by doing this you take away the baseline level of knowledge that every tradesman gets through basic training; individual training cells and maintenance schools will invariably deliver a slightly different flavour of training. The problem then is for the central training school to identify where the starting point is for delivering technician training - if everyone has had the same then we know where the baseline sits.

Fair point, I was thinking to far ahead of myself, 1 AMM posted to Typhoon and 1 to Puma will share many different skills, but one will require far more on type training. Are there any particular subjects being being scrapped ?

 

[Sospan]

Think bigger and older mate.
More crew and quite a bit further away than the Humber :S

Gottcha, thats encouraging to see BOI recommendations filtering all the way down to the AMMs course.

 

[Real Slim Shady]

AMMs - the true story

AMMs - the true story

Good Evening,
I've been reading through this thread and felt that I had to contribute, a lot of what has been said is both accurate and factual. However, I also feel that someone has to correct the posts that are complete and utter ****.
It is particularly interesting to read what the AMMs Trade, and Course, Sponsor has done. As I am the said individual it has been enlightening - I have either been in some sort semi-concious state or I'll definitely have to cut down on the alocohol consumption.
The inaccuracies are too many to answer in a oner, but if you really want to know something about AMM recruitment, their course at Cosford etc then ring me at work. Phone number is easy to find, or PM me here.
If there are any AMMs out there who would like to post on this thread 'straight from the horse's mouth', it would be good to hear your side.
Thank you and goodnight - I'm here all week...

 

[Bitburger]

Good Evening,
I've been reading through this thread and felt that I had to contribute, a lot of what has been said is both accurate and factual. However, I also feel that someone has to correct the posts that are complete and utter ****.
It is particularly interesting to read what the AMMs Trade, and Course, Sponsor has done. As I am the said individual it has been enlightening - I have either been in some sort semi-concious state or I'll definitely have to cut down on the alocohol consumption.
The inaccuracies are too many to answer in a oner, but if you really want to know something about AMM recruitment, their course at Cosford etc then ring me at work. Phone number is easy to find, or PM me here.
If there are any AMMs out there who would like to post on this thread 'straight from the horse's mouth', it would be good to hear your side.
Thank you and goodnight - I'm here all week...

Welcome RSS Please feel free to point out which posts are complete and utter ****.

 

[fat lazy techie]

^^^^^^^^^^Wot he said^^^^^^^^

As far as I can see AMMs are mainly liney first and trade assisst second. With this being the case then I feel my posts on the matter are quite factual. After speaking to a rather downtrodden SNCO, at a station that shall remain annonymous, I was informed the little dears are used 70-80% liney and the rest as trade assist.

If, RSS, you are who you say you are why did you not speak to the instructors, who have to deliver the training, to see what they think on the matter when you visited recently? I can tell you that there were some who saw potential problems with the course as it is now being delivered and as such were removed from the project team.

Any squadron bods wish to aid in this debate?

 

[MontyPlumbs]

^^^^^^^^^^Wot he said^^^^^^^^

As far as I can see AMMs are mainly liney first and trade assisst second. With this being the case then I feel my posts on the matter are quite factual. After speaking to a rather downtrodden SNCO, at a station that shall remain annonymous, I was informed the little dears are used 70-80% liney and the rest as trade assist.

If, RSS, you are who you say you are why did you not speak to the instructors, who have to deliver the training, to see what they think on the matter when you visited recently? I can tell you that there were some who saw potential problems with the course as it is now being delivered and as such were removed from the project team.

Any squadron bods wish to aid in this debate?

It's as we all said at the start mate, cutting down on an individuals line training package, when all they are going to be doing is line work, is wrong on so many levels and will only increase the crap we get through the squadron doors every week. Our AMMs are used exactly in the manner you describe - 80% line and then trade assist or t-bar etc when not required for the line or downgraded.

 

[Roobsta]

mis-management of AMMs?

mis-management of AMMs?

After a long read of the thread, I'll just throw some things in the ring:-

1. AMMs are NOT FLMs

2. AMMs are trained as first sig all trades (except wpns) and can be used as such.

3. How can an AMM go back on an FT course with no tradework under his/her belt as all they have done is servicings?

4. I agree that taking experienced SACs/JT off the trade desk to do line causes pain with the manpower cuts, but how can you teach the new guys the job when all they do is line work?

5. My swingwingers have a TATS form for the AMMs that includes some tradework including wheel and LRI changes, Simple OOPs, restudding the radios and doing IFF loads - what do other Sqns do?

 

[HPLO]

Good Evening,
I've been reading through this thread and felt that I had to contribute, a lot of what has been said is both accurate and factual. However, I also feel that someone has to correct the posts that are complete and utter ****.
It is particularly interesting to read what the AMMs Trade, and Course, Sponsor has done. As I am the said individual it has been enlightening - I have either been in some sort semi-concious state or I'll definitely have to cut down on the alocohol consumption.
The inaccuracies are too many to answer in a oner, but if you really want to know something about AMM recruitment, their course at Cosford etc then ring me at work. Phone number is easy to find, or PM me here.
If there are any AMMs out there who would like to post on this thread 'straight from the horse's mouth', it would be good to hear your side.
Thank you and goodnight - I'm here all week...

If you are indeed whom you claim to be, then by doing so you have highlighted the very root of the problem.
You must be either out of touch with the real world or badly served.
Please, you need to look beyond the reality filter that seems to be impairing you view.
With so much emphasis on 'Trade Assist' for AMMs initial training (which could well be taught on an OJT basis, as and if required at Squadron level) in conjuction with a reduction in both time and quality in Line Training at Cosford, you are indirectly compromising Flight Safety. Fact - Like it or not.

Still, if all else fails, a blatent disregard to look facts in the face will always prevail. Carry on - and it's turning into one.

 

[MontyPlumbs]

After a long read of the thread, I'll just throw some things in the ring:-

1. AMMs are NOT FLMs

2. AMMs are trained as first sig all trades (except wpns) and can be used as such.

3. How can an AMM go back on an FT course with no tradework under his/her belt as all they have done is servicings?

4. I agree that taking experienced SACs/JT off the trade desk to do line causes pain with the manpower cuts, but how can you teach the new guys the job when all they do is line work?

5. My swingwingers have a TATS form for the AMMs that includes some tradework including wheel and LRI changes, Simple OOPs, restudding the radios and doing IFF loads - what do other Sqns do?

Roobs, I know what you are saying mate, but primarily the AMMs do the line, whether that's what they are meant to do or not. They do assist on trade desks when not required for the line but other than that they do no trade work. AMMs do the line, pure and simple, manpower does not allow for anything else. At least on my squadron they do anyway (we do try to give them some time on the trade desk just before they go back on FT). I can't speak for any other squadron, but that's how it works here.

 

[Tin basher]

How can an AMM go back on an FT course with no tradework under his/her belt as all they have done is servicings?

Part of the deal they signed up to was to receive training in two chunks. AMM course and Further training course. As an aside although we all refer to it as a fitters course it's not, certainly not in the sense us older ones remember a fitters course. However to crack on they signed up for a total training package of x weeks in duration. So the AMM course is just a small portion of the whole. As to how they can come back with minimal trade work. The start point for the FT course has to be the end point of the AMM course. Because the AMM's have been employed on a range of units with vastly different experiences of aircraft work. Some have done only what AMM's are allowed by the book and nothing more, others have undertaken tasks way beyond the scope of an AMM. there are many reasons why. Individual TM's have interpreted the rules slightly differently, shortages of manpower at units have led to AMM's doing trade tasks on a regular basis. Therefore because of this widely varying types of task they have carried out the FT course has to assume they have done nothing more than they are permitted by the book. The trade specific elements of training are included in the FT course. For example the Composite structure package (Carbon, Kevlar, GRP) is bigger, more complex and goes deeper than any previous FT course ever. Only the guys at the HAMS composite school do more composite stuff.

 

[Real Slim Shady]

Many thanks for your comments - in particular to Tin Basher, FLT, MontyP, Bitburger & Roobsta.

The current, and historical, ratio of mechs to techs on 1st Line work (below JNCO) is 35% Mechs to 65% Techs. This corresponds to the 35/65 split that AMMs are supposed to be employed on. I.e 65% of their daily tasks should be at mechanic level (Liney stuff) and 35% technician (rects/sched maint). Correctly employed AAMs should be gaining this work experience; this will prepare them for their FT. As a point of note, the FLMs did a far shorter cse than the AMMs do, with far less hands-on ac stuff.

It is a fact that on some units AMMs are employed on Primary and P* servicings, as well as being heavily involved in a wide range of rects jobs; with the present LUE numbers many sqns would not be able to cope without doing this.
Apologies to FLT for not speaking to the instructors on my recent visit, no excuse but time was limited. I did however speak with both your SEngO and the Sqn WO at length; as well as with the TDSS (Cse Design) guys. Perhaps we can arrange to have a chat next time?
The AMMs trg is designed to allow them to hit the ground walking, it is the units/sqns responsibility to turn the walk into a run.

 

[Bitburger]

The problem with the AMMs is that they have arrived on the scene at a time when Squadrons have unprecedented low levels of manning, a fact exasperated by an ever increasing OOA commitment (both non formed and formed). This leaves the shift manning on some Squadrons dangerously low. When a Shift Manager is left with, say for example a Mechanical desk with 2 SNCO, 3 JNCOs and perhaps 4 JT/SACT and 3 AMMs. To meet the flying program he will be forced to use his JNCO/JT/SACT on trade work. The AMMS will therefore invariably be the ones given up for line work and tool stores. When the AMMS finish line work they will usually be moved onto trade work, but certainly on the AT fleet the line work will last most of the shift.

I do not think that OC Ops and Forward would accept an excuse from a Shift Manager who said, ‘We failed to meet the flying program because I used my experienced personnel on line work and the AMMs on rectification’ (with its increased burden of supervision).

The manning levels are what are at fault; they should be increased to allow for the lack of trade experience of AMMs and the increased level of supervision required when using them on trade work.

I must say that the AMMs that I had on my shift were all first rate and had a positive attitude.

I think that AMMs should be posted to a line Sqn for 12-18 months and then to an AMF for 12-18 months before their FT, this would allow them to gain a wide level of experience ready for their FT. However ever increasing civilinisation of 2nd line posts makes this unlikely.

It is hard to change the walk of the AMMs into a run when the shift manpower are all at the sprint.

 

[fat lazy techie]

RSS

Thanks for the positive comments with regards my posts, it's nice to be appreciated. I would like to guide you towards another thread regarding AMMs, but I suspect you have already read through this one.
http://www.e-goat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=13524

Having spoken to some of the instructional staff, regards to your last post, a chance to chat amongst us would be most appreciated next time you visit. I don't know if this is beyond your remit, but it would be nice to have some of the various Sqn training cells pay us at Cosford a visit. That way they can see what we do here and can get some feedback from the end customer. Just a thought.

 

[Forestfan]

Did you know that at Lossie and Marham Sqn training cells don't exist any more, they were replaced by a Wing establishment. Dunno if that's the same everywhere now? Not that relevant here, but you Cosford fellas might not know about that. Been the case for nearly 2 years now.

 

[Captain Gatso]

The problem with the AMMs is that they have arrived on the scene at a time when Squadrons have unprecedented low levels of manning, a fact exasperated by an ever increasing OOA commitment (both non formed and formed). This leaves the shift manning on some Squadrons dangerously low

. [

SIZE=2]It is hard to change the walk of the AMMs into a run when the shift manpower are all at the sprint.

Could not agree with you more on that one. The squadrons were, just before I left the Airforce, especially in swampy land, running at max chat. The OOA commitments for one squadron had been so great a strain, that a whole load of techies PVR'd the moment they got back from theater. The line training people must be running around with there heads on fire, trying to train the AMM's up with little or no available back up from experienced JNCO's, SAC'T, or the few JT's left. As they are always going to be on rects, trying to keep the jets servicable for the flying programme. As Bitburger said, how can you expect the AMM's to be able to hit the ground running when there are so few people left available to help the Training cell do this? On another note RSS, I applaude you for coming onto this thread to try and set the record straight. I just wish that there would be more people in your posistion that would do the same. Things could be very different if the normal rank and file knew that there views are taken onboard, by the senior managment.DT_Xtremez_40:

 

[Real Slim Shady]

FLT – I will ensure that next time we will meet, might only be for an hour or so though. Sorry out of my area to get Trg Cells to visit you. It has been 2 years since I was ‘at the coal face’ but even then most MOBs were amalgamating the individual Sqn trg cells into a Stn one. Yet again a manpower saving exercise, but it also teaches a common standard across the differing Sqns at a unit – no bad thing.
I hadn’t read the other thread you mentioned – have now, thanks.

Bitburger – Nail on head. Times are hard for all, harder for some than others undoubtedly. No magic wand either I’m afraid.

One of the things that is apparent, from my travels, is that unless Sqns treat their AMMs decently they will not be overly keen on going back - post FT. This is where the clever WOs/FSs are cleaning up. Invest in your AMMs now and reap the rewards later.

Sorry Forsetfan, just read yours ref Trg Cells – too quick for me, as per…

Capt Gatso – I can't speak for everyone but some do care and try to do the best job possible – honest. Thanks for positive reception. More than happy to attempt to answer other stuff as well.

 

[8:15fromOdium]

RSS,

agreed that times are hard and that most stns are now amalgamating their training cells (good move in my opinion). With this desire to have the AMMs at least partially trained on stn and by the training cells, are these training objectives (Syllabus Part 3's in old money) being advised to the stns/training cells? Obviously once the size of this training task is known it will enable the stns/training cells to train/man/resource accordingly.

On a seperate note it is good to see that this debate is now going on and you are able to engage in it.

 

[fat lazy techie]

Message to all Sqn/Station training cells.

Please come to Cosford and speak to us. We want your feedback on what we are giving you, as well as giving you the chance to see what we are delivering. It will be of benefit to us all in the long run.