Afghan LOA

[Oberon305]

......However, as annoying as having incorrect pay is, I do not think that this can be comapared to a technical mistake which can have life theatning consequences.

Agreed....but in the modern age of HFMEMS, a technician who is having money troubles either through bad money management OR through a pay cock-up could potentially not have his mind fully on a job.....so it IS a factor.

Before Bird has a go at me for starting a trade-slagging, I'm not. But in this pink-and-fluffy age of HF, the seemingly increased amount of pay screw-ups shouldn't be ignored.

 

[Dazzy26]

The age old argument about administrators not getting 'techie charges' for their mistakes is an emotive one; unsurprisingly these arguments have become more common since we were placed into the higher pay band. As an administrator of some 17 years, I have worked with some truely guff clerks and I can quite understand why the technical trades get annnoyed when their pay statements are incorrect. However, as annoying as having incorrect pay is, I do not think that this can be comapared to a technical mistake which can have life theatning consequences.

Totally disagree, and if you can't realise that the fact an adminer has c*cked a Techies pay up does not have an influence on how he/she does their job then after 17 years you have no idea about a massive subject involved in flight safety called Human Factors.

As an example a chap working on an aircraft is £500 short in his pay due to an 'admin guff' His wife is on the phone to him constantly saying she has no money to buy food for the kids (extrem but has happened). Is his mind going to be on his job? He makes a mistake and doesn't notice, and there is an accident? Who's to blame him? Or is the main contributing factor the fact his pay is screwed up.... and who caused that?

 

[R_Squared]

.....As an example a chap working on an aircraft is £500 short in his pay due to an 'admin guff' His wife is on the phone to him constantly saying she has no money to buy food for the kids (extrem but has happened). Is his mind going to be on his job? He makes a mistake and doesn't notice, and there is an accident? Who's to blame him? Or is the main contributing factor the fact his pay is screwed up.... and who caused that?

So that means that shineys do deserve the higher pay band then?

 

[Dazzy26]

So that means that shineys do deserve the higher pay band then?

If they are fully prepared to accept the consequence of their actions and the full force/punishment from any investigation that go along with it as any maintenance personnel have to!!

 

[Plumber]

How exactly are they going to recover money from ex service personnel? I doubt they even have my address to send me a nice begging letter, of which I'm fairly sure would get filed under B1n. For christ's sake I don't even remember if I got LOA for being at Kabul.

 

[busby1971]

Adminers

Adminers

Adminers can and do get charged for improper professional conduct so this is a bit of a non issue. As with any trade a non performing Shiney can, and do, get admin discharges I have known of two individuals lose their jobs due to inefficiency.

I think other trades need to realise that as a trade we generally have a very good performance rate, most people get paid correctly on time, on the occasion that mistakes are made actions can be taken so that individuals can be maintained at normal levels whilst corrective actions take place.

 

[J A F F A]

Totally disagree, and if you can't realise that the fact an adminer has c*cked a Techies pay up does not have an influence on how he/she does their job then after 17 years you have no idea about a massive subject involved in flight safety called Human Factors.

As an example a chap working on an aircraft is £500 short in his pay due to an 'admin guff' His wife is on the phone to him constantly saying she has no money to buy food for the kids (extrem but has happened). Is his mind going to be on his job? He makes a mistake and doesn't notice, and there is an accident? Who's to blame him? Or is the main contributing factor the fact his pay is screwed up.... and who caused that?

Just to get this right in my mind, are you saying that anybody who has any tenuous link to an individual who has been involved in a flight safety issue should be charged. Perhaps they can charge the supplier who did not have the right size boots in stock, causing him blisters on his feet and stopping him concentrating on the job. Maybe they could charge the liney who sh&*ged his girlfriend last night after the NAAFI bop. What about the SWO who has told him that his sideburns should be “down to his septum not his rectum” and demanded to see him in his office at 1630 hrs. How about the armourer who took the **** out of him in the crewroom that morning. Maybe you should charge his mate who knew he was stressed about something but failed to highlight it. Where do you draw the line?

My understanding of Human Factors is that it is used to explain or mitigate actions of individuals and is not used to 'witch hunt' people who may or may not have been linked with an incident. Baring a full psychological evaluation of all techies prior to their shift, you will never eradicate HF in Flight Safety or in life in general.

Further to this, anybody who does find themselves unable to 'buy food for the kids' can ask for an advance which can either be paid that day in cash or into their bank via BACS. Any line manager worth his salt would know this and would get the guy to go and see the chf clk before starting his shift. Maybe after all your years in the RAF you were not aware of this but, as Admin is maybe not your trade, I will forgive you for this and not slate you on the forum

 

[CashMachine]

How exactly are they going to recover money from ex service personnel? I doubt they even have my address to send me a nice begging letter, of which I'm fairly sure would get filed under B1n. For christ's sake I don't even remember if I got LOA for being at Kabul.

Did you do 12 or more years? Expecting a pension at age 55 or 60?

 

[Stax]

Can I ask how the feck we got from LOA to HF MEMS?

 

[Plumber]

Did you do 12 or more years? Expecting a pension at age 55 or 60?

Yes, I did 18 years. However my pension is in an investment account to do with as I please. I transferred it two years ago into a Kiwi fund. So they're sh1t out of luck if they want to get it back that way.

 

[CC]

I've recently issued over 25 letters to individuals informing them that they have been identified as having a LOA overissue. The recovery figures range from £4 to over £6000.

Most of them will appeal, which is their choice. Some to pay it back at a lower rate and some as they had no Deployed Welfare Package in place.

The one constant theme that's appearing is that it seems most of the guys believe they were OPLOC'd into theatre by Army personnel.

However, gotta laugh at the constant digs on here at the 'Adminers'. QRs state it is your responsibility to check your pay statement. Consequently, the argument of, "I didn't realise I was getting it paid" will hold no water. Some people have received over £100 a day in LOA payments and didn't think to question it. More the fool them.

Ladies & Gents, if you've received dubious payments in your salary, and you're not sure if you were entitled to said payment then question it and get it documented that you have questioned it. If you weren't authorised to receive this payment, eventually a report will be run that will bring your overpayment to our attention and recovery action will commence. However, if you can prove you questioned it when you first received it then you could have a valid argument to keep the money.

 

[CashMachine]

I think the lesson we can all learn from this is, if you have to question something with your friendly Admin staff, do it via e-mail where possible and keep copies. Otherwise the "I went to PSF and they said it was right" argument will hold no water.

I also believe that things like this will become more and more regular as reports are run and mistakes from the past will come back to haunt us.

 

[CC]

Cashmachine, totally agree and, whilst most Chf Clks will hate me for saying this, e-mail your Chf Clk so you have an audit trail.

 

[BillyBunter]

JPA didn't make or let this happen, some incompetent, negligent snivelling little shiney pressed the buttons that made it happen!

Everyone making excuses for the shineys, was it ever thus!

Except that now they are being paid as professionals they need to behave as professionals and start facing up to the consequences of their actions. It is no longer "just some techies wages" it is now a matter of record and quality and accountability. To date those concepts have been totally alien to the admin world, well guess what? Now it isn't going to be! Now, we are ALL entitled to a professional, competent, accountable level of service. Again, I stress, with high band pay comes responsibility and accountability. You want to be paid like a grown up, start behaving like one!

It is time we, the Air Force in general, started making the incompetent, complacent, negligent "HR" trade join the world of reality and responsibility! If you are an NCO or SNCO and your admin staff are negligent or incompetent, fizz 'em! If you are a junior and your PSF cock up, QR1001 the Chief Clk! Sauce for the aircraft trades, lubricant for the shiney's starfish!

Amen to that DT_Xtremez_14:

 

[Oberon305]

Can I ask how the feck we got from LOA to HF MEMS?

Sorry for repeating myself.....and yes....maybeOff Topic

From LOA to HF MEMS simply because......the statement was made that an admin/pay ****up can't be compared to a technical error causing an aircraft 'incident'. The reply was that Human Factors and/or MEMS takes into consideration outside influences such as personal circumstances/emotional state/diversions etc, and an admin issue such as the re-imbursement of an (unknowingly) incorrectly-paid allowance such as LOA can affect a technicians concentration/judgement. I'm not for one second saying that any incident is/would be an adminers 'fault', just that is a contributory factor.

Sorry guys/girls, know it was a little off-topic, just replying to a question.

 

[Warwick Hunt]

I've recently issued over 25 letters to individuals informing them that they have been identified as having a LOA overissue. The recovery figures range from £4 to over £6000.

Most of them will appeal, which is their choice. Some to pay it back at a lower rate and some as they had no Deployed Welfare Package in place.

The one constant theme that's appearing is that it seems most of the guys believe they were OPLOC'd into theatre by Army personnel.

However, gotta laugh at the constant digs on here at the 'Adminers'. QRs state it is your responsibility to check your pay statement. Consequently, the argument of, "I didn't realise I was getting it paid" will hold no water. Some people have received over £100 a day in LOA payments and didn't think to question it. More the fool them.

Ladies & Gents, if you've received dubious payments in your salary, and you're not sure if you were entitled to said payment then question it and get it documented that you have questioned it. If you weren't authorised to receive this payment, eventually a report will be run that will bring your overpayment to our attention and recovery action will commence. However, if you can prove you questioned it when you first received it then you could have a valid argument to keep the money.

Amen to that brother. The problem is the populace out there require their clerks to wipe their bottoms for them, so the chances of them ever having the initiative to question their pay BEFORE it's too late is, at best, slim. It's in every SRO at every station week after week - pay statements are to be checked for errors every month, yet no-one bothers to take heed until it's too late to be helped.

 

[penfold93]

I've recently issued over 25 letters to individuals informing them that they have been identified as having a LOA overissue. The recovery figures range from £4 to over £6000.

Most of them will appeal, which is their choice. Some to pay it back at a lower rate and some as they had no Deployed Welfare Package in place.

The one constant theme that's appearing is that it seems most of the guys believe they were OPLOC'd into theatre by Army personnel.

However, gotta laugh at the constant digs on here at the 'Adminers'. QRs state it is your responsibility to check your pay statement. Consequently, the argument of, "I didn't realise I was getting it paid" will hold no water. Some people have received over £100 a day in LOA payments and didn't think to question it. More the fool them.

Ladies & Gents, if you've received dubious payments in your salary, and you're not sure if you were entitled to said payment then question it and get it documented that you have questioned it. If you weren't authorised to receive this payment, eventually a report will be run that will bring your overpayment to our attention and recovery action will commence. However, if you can prove you questioned it when you first received it then you could have a valid argument to keep the money.

Amen to that brother. The problem is the populace out there require their clerks to wipe their bottoms for them, so the chances of them ever having the initiative to question their pay BEFORE it's too late is, at best, slim. It's in every SRO at every station week after week - pay statements are to be checked for errors every month, yet no-one bothers to take heed until it's too late to be helped.

It is however YOUR job to get it right in the first place. Sorry adminers but this holier than thou attitude with this doesnt wash.
An OOA deployment is stressful to the individual and the family and it would be nice to think that your admin staff was helping to relieve some of this pressure by making sure all is well, that individuals are paid correctly and that they are supported whilst away. I had very limited JPA access and no pay slips whilst away and this is the same for many others then why should you then have to go running around chasing admin/pay issues as soon as you return.

Stop hiding behind your stock responses and do the job you are paid to do. Dont get delusions of grandeur yes you are paid to 'wipe the bottoms' from and admin perspective, just as I as a nurse have to litteraly wipe the bottoms of my patients. The difference is should I mess a patients care up they may come to harm or possibly die and hiding behind a few pieces of paper will not wash.

It is NOT my fault that the whole military administration system/JPA is sh!te and that from the posters on here feel that there job is to make things worse for their customers (US) rather than helping us.

I did not arrive myself in theatre that was done for me and it doesnt matter who did it, it was an ADMINISTRATIVE process and if the Admin staff are trying to hide their negligence and incompetence by blaming us then that is just more conclusive evidence as to the level of incompetence that permiates all levels of the Admin system in all three services.

It just shows how incompetent the military admin system is that it has taken a non-military external agency to spot the mistake. So not only do I not understand the system then neither do the admin staff that are there to administer it.

I have some good friends and colleagues who are Admin, but sorry guys this is outrageous and just one monumental Administrative balls up.

 

[CashMachine]

Amen to that brother. The problem is the populace out there require their clerks to wipe their bottoms for them, so the chances of them ever having the initiative to question their pay BEFORE it's too late is, at best, slim. It's in every SRO at every station week after week - pay statements are to be checked for errors every month, yet no-one bothers to take heed until it's too late to be helped.

Really?? Am I the only one who has never seen this????

 

[BlahBlah]

Yes it the adminers place to get it right, however, everybody makes mistakes - especially on a system that nobody recevied sufficient training on.

Limited JPA access and no hardcopy pay statements is a cop out - surely you noticed at some point this erroneous payment, even if not until your return? It should have been questioned and the JSP 752 is not there for the sole use of adminers, everyone has access and should read, even if they have already been advised by PSF - if you think it is wrong take it higher up the chain, nobody is gong to berate you for questioning something you think you are not entitled to!!

The long and short of it is yes it is a complete balls up but other trades mess up as well I am sure, nobody is perfect at the end of the day. All you can do is appeal, I hope that your voices get heard and the outcome is as you hoped!

 

[penfold93]

Ok if I am responsible for my own admin and being up to speed with all the JSP's etc, and checking my own pay statements and inputing my own claims and leave etc then the big questions has to be asked where is the justification for the trade with the run up to an SDR then surely you are shooting yourself in the foot by saying that actually it is us who have to do our own admin. Simple solution civilianise PSF if you cannot take resposibility for performing your primary duty then get civvies that cost a lot less.

All this talk about JSP's and your responsibility is just an excuse.

Medics dont expect you to Know AP1269 and 1269A when you come to the Med centre then expect you treat yourself.
Techies dont expect you to know the JAP 100A inside and out and fix the ac you are due to fly on.
Pilots dont expect you to be fully conversant with the flight manual and flky yourself to your destination.

So why is it our responsibility to know all the admin stuff.

An admin assistant commented today that it didnt happen to them because they arrived themself into theatre, well lucky them for having that ability some of us arent that lucky and it was nice to see that they checked that everyone else was OK.

And while I am on the subject please adminstaff correct me if I am wrong but once an individual is arrived in theatre then that is notified to the admin staff at the parent unit. Where is the check there? Oh and has the problem been sorted ......has it balls!