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AIP mispayment

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AIP mispayment

  • 0-250

    Votes: 21 45.7%

  • 251-500

    Votes: 4 8.7%

  • 501-1000

    Votes: 3 6.5%

  • 1001-1500

    Votes: 4 8.7%

  • 1501-2000

    Votes: 2 4.3%

  • 2001-2500

    Votes: 1 2.2%

  • 2501-3000

    Votes: 1 2.2%

  • 3001-4000

    Votes: 3 6.5%

  • 4001-5000

    Votes: 1 2.2%

  • 5001+ (Ouch!)

    Votes: 6 13.0%
  • Total voters
    46
I have been asked to provide my certificates, not sure if i used my Btec or NVQ3 (TG1), as the adminers have no paperwork for me as they have lost it. Do i give them both certificates or should I stand my ground and say you lost it, hard luck!? I applied in 2004. think according to the JSP at the time i am covered unless someone says otherwise??
 
Reading through the thread, there seems to be a trend of 'lost paperwork or certificates' from people's original applications. The certificates had to be certified as true copies and signed so where have they all gone!!??
 
mikeoxlong said:
I have been asked to provide my certificates, not sure if i used my Btec or NVQ3 (TG1), as the adminers have no paperwork for me as they have lost it. Do i give them both certificates or should I stand my ground and say you lost it, hard luck!? I applied in 2004. think according to the JSP at the time i am covered unless someone says otherwise??
Click to expand...



*personally* - I would ask them which certificates they want to see. If they can't tell you exactly which qualification you used for the AIP then I think you'd do yourself no favours by providing a certificate that *may* turn out to be ineligible.

I wouldn't say "hard luck" and risk someone ordering you to do it, I'd just say that you can't provide a certificate unless you see the paperwork to know which you used.
 
One of our members has just sent me the following link:

http://www.lemon-co.co.uk/article_overpayments.php

Not 100% sure it can be used against the MOD as we do operate with some slightly different rules, but it is certainly worth a look.

Paragraph 2 is of particular interest as i think the three requirements are easily met by our situation which in turn could make it legally wrong for them to start recovering overpayments.
 
The Bishop said:
Paragraph 2 is of particular interest as i think the three requirements are easily met by our situation which in turn could make it legally wrong for them to start recovering overpayments.
Click to expand...

Paragraph 4 effectively OKs it for the employer to start recovering the funds and throws the onus back on to the employee to prove, through legal means, the conditions of paragraph 2 have been met. Once the first case is proved, the legal precedent for all employees in the same boat is set, so the group action is a good way forward - and it puts egg on the faces of the imbeciles who came up with the whole idea of recovering the "over payments" claimed for, and approved, in good faith.
 
The Bishop said:
One of our members has just sent me the following link:

http://www.lemon-co.co.uk/article_overpayments.php

Not 100% sure it can be used against the MOD as we do operate with some slightly different rules, but it is certainly worth a look.

Paragraph 2 is of particular interest as i think the three requirements are easily met by our situation which in turn could make it legally wrong for them to start recovering overpayments.
Click to expand...

Good gen!

How fast will this ball be rolling? Am I right in thinking overpayments will start being reclaimed in February's pay if it is approved in Jan?

As for tax, we will have to go through HMRC as individuals. The main issue will be that this will have occurred over multiple tax years, multiple pay spines and increases. The RAF should liaise with HMRC and offer advice to us.

ETA: some legal stuff...

The employee may be able to stop their employer from deducting sums from their wages if they have been overpaid if the 3 conditions for promissory estoppel are met:


The employer must have generally made a representation of fact which led the employee to believe that he was entitled to treat the money as his own; and
The employee must have “changed his position” (i.e. spent either some or all of the money) in good faith and without notice of the employer’s wish to be reimbursed the overpayment; and
The overpayment to the employee must not have been primarily caused by the fault of the employee
As can be seen from the above, employees do have a degree of protection from overpayments being reclaimed by their employer. However, these protections are limited. Below is a list of issues that the employee should consider in such circumstances:


Has their employer possession of evidence of the overpayment?
Has the employee been led to believe that they were entitled to the money they were overpaid?
Is the overpayment primarily caused by the fault of the employer?
Has the employee spent the money in reliance on the fact that they were believed that the money was theirs?
 
Last edited:
The extended review covered an extra 10500 people, in total I heard around 13000 people.
 
Cheers for posting that link The Bishop, I am still having some problems on certain threads when trying to post.
 
Promissory Estoppel

Promissory Estoppel

The employee may be able to stop their employer from deducting sums from their wages if they have been overpaid if the 3 conditions for promissory estoppel are met:


The employer must have generally made a representation of fact which led the employee to believe that he was entitled to treat the money as his own; and
YES - AIP Scheme - We submitted AIP Forms genuinely believeing they were legit - IAW JSP 754
The employee must have “changed his position” (i.e. spent either some or all of the money) in good faith and without notice of the employer’s wish to be reimbursed the overpayment; YES -If we are awarded it - We assume all checks have been made and it was approved by HR before being entered on JPA.
and
The overpayment to the employee must not have been primarily caused by the fault of the employee - YES HR Approved it after presumably carrying out required checks.

As can be seen from the above, employees do have a degree of protection from overpayments being reclaimed by their employer. However, these protections are limited. Below is a list of issues that the employee should consider in such circumstances:


Has their employer possession of evidence of the overpayment? YES - AIP Paperwork from Audit.
Has the employee been led to believe that they were entitled to the money they were overpaid? YES - HR Approved it.
Is the overpayment primarily caused by the fault of the employer? YES - JSP Regs are available - HR Approval would mean checks were done/ or lack of training?
Has the employee spent the money in reliance on the fact that they were believed that the money was theirs? YES - If its awarded on JPA, it should be assumed as approved.
 
I would also like to know why they have decide on starting from 2004 my Q|Q-PI-A was awarded in April 2001 as a SAC. Has anyone got any links to the JSP/AP's that were relevent to 2001, the 754 only goes back to 2006.I just want to make sure that the qualifications i put in were definatly relevent/accepted at that time and that i am not going to get screwed over at a later date.
 
The Bishop said:
The overpayment to the employee must not have been primarily caused by the fault of the employee - YES HR Approved it after presumably carrying out required checks.


Is the overpayment primarily caused by the fault of the employer?
Click to expand...

Did all of the aggrieved personnel apply for the increment? Did they initiate the process that caused the overissue of monies? If yes, then estoppel rules cannot apply.

The initial blame is being passed here, if you hadn't applied then you wouldn't have begun the process.


Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
 
SirSaltyHelmet said:
Did all of the aggrieved personnel apply for the increment? Did they initiate the process that caused the overissue of monies? If yes, then estoppel rules cannot apply.

The initial blame is being passed here, if you hadn't applied then you wouldn't have begun the process.


Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...

Agreed, its a toughie, i'm no legal beagle so people could run rings around me, this is where some legal council is required, to be fair i think the thread is just exporing all avenues at the moment. Several people are taking legal advice so hopefully if they report back here we can gain a better picture of the situation.

We need to think about somewhere to start the money collecting process, with any luck e-goat could provide a place for everyone to deposit contributions for the fight, otherwise i'm open to suggestions. I don't want to become the money collector!!!
 
From what I have been briefed if you have been overpaid, for whatever reason and irrespective of who is to blame, then you have to pay the money back. My understanding is that this covers a multitude of trade groups and goes back as far as 2005.
 
I doubt very much e-goat will be recieve funds on your behalf. You will be opening a whole can of worms that could leave the goat open to litigation etc.

In fact I will say e-goat will NOT recieve funds on your behalf. The guys need to set up something separate.


Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
 
Have we got confirmation of who this group "up north" is yet. I am happy to go it alone but we are stronger as a group. If this group fails to materialise I will help out with our group. We would need a payapl account for our kitty and preferably a FB group so we know who each other is. This will help with transparency as would regular account statements etc. If it did pick up and we took council, then the account could be run by the legal team if it comes to it.


Estoppel is irrelevent anyway, this was a systematic failure on a grand scale caused by either poor clk's, poorly trained clk's or poorly written JSP's. We were applicants and that is all, the success or failure of the application rested soley in the hands of the RAF's personnel department. I for one will not be put out because of thier inabillity to get it right.
 
Tubby said:
The extended review covered an extra 10500 people, in total I heard around 13000 people.
Click to expand...


That's a lot of HR Manhours spent going through the paperwork :O if that fell to local HR to deal with the stuff on their own station that's a massive workload for them to have to deal with.


Anyone got any idea of how many people are being chased for recovery of money?
 
7 Years

7 Years

Hi all....Correct me if I am wrong but under British law you can only be chased for monies in such a case as this...and tax under the "Statute of Limitations" legislation going back 7 years.

I am back in as FTRS now after a bit of time as a civvy......I put my AIPs in way back in 2001. When I returned to the Mob they tried to audit me for my resettlment claims!

I...in a polite but firm way.... told them to f££k off and did not hear anything more. It is the only language these clowns understand is to stand up to them....we have no union but e goat could be our unofficial one....fight the *******s and if that does not work and they bill you for 4 days pay per month....well its up to you if you are sick for those days every month until the debt is paid off......!

Good luck all.
 
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